"Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby OldBoring » 2013-11-15, 13:03

O 在 chinês é mais similar ao "estar" espanhol. Simplificando se usa para lugares, e para a estrutura "estou fazendo".

Obrigado Luís para ter aberto esse tópico. O erro que faço mais é usar "ficar" para o lugar das pessoas/coisas pequenas também.

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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby Luís » 2013-11-16, 19:32

hāozigǎnr wrote:
Obrigado Luís para ter aberto esse tópico.


Acho que deves também dar uma vista de olhos neste tópico ;)
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Re:

Postby vijayjohn » 2013-12-03, 19:50

Wikipedia wrote: Sólo uno es correcto. (Spanish) [ser]
Só um está correcto (or correto). (Portuguese) [estar]
Only one is correct.


OK, here I don't understand why Portuguese uses "estar." Is it because Portuguese views correctness as not being inherent, or something like that (if that makes any sense)? Or is this just one of those cases where you have to shrug your shoulders and accept that Portuguese uses "estar" whereas Spanish uses "ser"? (Wikipedia says something about differences in how "state versus essence" is understood; I have little or no idea what that means).

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Re: Re:

Postby Luís » 2013-12-03, 22:53

vijayjohn wrote:Or is this just one of those cases where you have to shrug your shoulders and accept that Portuguese uses "estar" whereas Spanish uses "ser"?


Most likely... :P

Being correct is just another state something can be in. I guess it's Spanish that's being weird here. Btw, you can also use "ser" with this adjective in Portuguese, but that usually means "not being correct according to some rule/moral standard".

Roubar não é corre(c)to = Stealing is not correct

vs

Este exercício não está corre(c)to = This exercise is not correct
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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby OldBoring » 2013-12-04, 7:21

What! Spanish uses "es correcto"? :shock:

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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby vijayjohn » 2013-12-06, 19:46

Yep. :P I guess it's just that for me, whatever Spanish does is the default option, because I've never had any formal instruction in Portuguese although I've taken five years' worth of Spanish classes in middle and high school. It does make some sense to me, though. I mean, surely something is either right or wrong, and correctness doesn't behave like illness or something. I'd think if something is correct, then it's always correct, not correct one day and incorrect the next.

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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby Luís » 2013-12-07, 23:21

vijayjohn wrote: I'd think if something is correct, then it's always correct, not correct one day and incorrect the next.


:hmm:

Imagine you're doing an exercise about the usage of ser/estar in Portuguese. The teacher looks at your answers and says "That's not correct". You look at it again and change your answer. The teacher then looks at it again and says "Ok, now it is correct".
So, the same exercise went from "incorrect" to "correct" in just a few seconds. Like I said above, being correct is just another state.
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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby vijayjohn » 2013-12-08, 6:24

Luís wrote:Imagine you're doing an exercise about the usage of ser/estar in Portuguese. The teacher looks at your answers and says "That's not correct". You look at it again and change your answer.

Exactly. It's the option I chose that changed, not the correctness of the available options.

Just in case I didn't say that clearly, let me try to explain what I mean more precisely: For the sake of argument, let's assume that the exercise I'm doing is answering a question on a multiple-choice test with only two available options. One option is A, and the other option is B.

I choose option A, and the teacher says, "That's not correct." In other words, "you didn't choose the correct option." So then I choose option B, and the teacher says, "OK, now it is correct." In other words, "now you've chosen the correct option."

The only thing that changed here is which option I chose. The correctness of A and B did not change; A was incorrect from the beginning, and B was correct from the beginning.

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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby Psi-Lord » 2013-12-08, 11:37

But then, A could easily be correct in another context, and B could equally be incorrect. :lol:

O que, claro, não é nada mais do que discutir o sexo dos anjos. :)
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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby OldBoring » 2013-12-10, 12:34

And... can I say "fica correto"?

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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby vijayjohn » 2013-12-12, 6:52

Psi-Lord wrote:But then, A could easily be correct in another context, and B could equally be incorrect. :lol:

Well, everything's relative!

O que, claro, não é nada mais do que discutir o sexo dos anjos. :)

:P

hāozigǎnr wrote:And... can I say "fica correto"?

Sim. :D

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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby dEhiN » 2014-10-27, 16:58

Psi-Lord wrote:O que, claro, não é nada mais do que discutir o sexo dos anjos. :)

Does that basically mean "of course, this is nothing more than discussing the sex of angels"? If so, não entendi! :D

As for inherent versus changing correctness, I can see both points of view. In any society some things are keep their "correctness" and other things change over time. Laws change what is acceptable behaviour (ex: gay marriage), and acceptable behaviour can be described with the terms "correct/incorrect".

I guess Spanish just focuses on the concept of "correctness" never changing, while Portuguese focuses on the concept that it can change.
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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-20, 16:37

My grammar book also makes two other distinctions between ser and estar when used with adjectives:

ser is used to state something which is a common knowledge and that hence doesn't need to be experienced in first person. E.g: a água do mar é salgada.

Whereas estar is used to state a particular knowledge that has been experienced in first person. E.g: esta sopa está salgada.

Moreover,

ser is used when the adjective is not the result of an action. E.g: o vestido é novo.

Whereas estar is used when the adjective is the result of an action. E.g: o vestido está roto.

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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby Osias » 2014-12-20, 18:55

IpseDixit wrote:My grammar book also makes two other distinctions between ser and estar when used with adjectives:

ser is used to state something which is a common knowledge and that hence doesn't need to be experienced in first person. E.g: a água do mar é salgada.

Whereas estar is used to state a particular knowledge that has been experienced in first person. E.g: esta sopa está salgada.



Eu não sei porque isso é considerado uma regra adicional e não parte da regra original.

IpseDixit wrote:ser is used when the adjective is not the result of an action. E.g: o vestido é novo.

Whereas estar is used when the adjective is the result of an action. E.g: o vestido está roto.


O que explica o ditado popular "lavou, tá novo"
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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-20, 20:06

Eu não sei porque isso é considerado uma regra adicional e não parte da regra original.


Mmmm let's imagine that a group of friends is hiking in a forest and at a point they find a lake and decide to take a swim there, when they get in the lake, they realize the water is salty, so if I've understood correctly, they would say a água está salgada because it is not a general knowledge that the water of that particular lake is salty and therefore one needs to experience it in first person to know that. But this goes against the general rule that says that estar is used for temporary states because the fact that the water of that lake is salty is presumably a permanent condition.

Am I right?

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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby Osias » 2014-12-21, 0:20

Oooolha...

Nesse exemplo aí... Acho mais provável que digam, com espanto, "a água desse lago é salgada" e se alguém já foi no lago antes, e a água não era salgada antes, diria com espanto "a água desse lago está salgada HOJE, caramba, isso deve ser obra de aliens!"

Agora fiquei confuso pra criar um exemplo melhor.
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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-12-21, 0:25

:(

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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby Osias » 2014-12-21, 0:34

Eu concordo com seu livro, ok?

Mas há algo a falar: tudo é relativo.

Este fórum já teve muito movimento, hoje não há mais muitos posts e usuários. Posso falar com um amigo, explicando que o fórum existe: "este fórum é bom, mas está meio parado." Mas TAMBÉM posso falar "este fórum é bom, mas é meio parado."

Se isso for dito a ele por vários amigos, é conhecimento comum, que ele não experimentou diretamente, mas os amigos usarão tanto ser quanto estar sem nenhuma regra nem pensar no assunto.

Se ele chegar e experimentar o fórum por conta própria e concluir a mesma coisa, também pode usar tanto ser quanto estar pra falar a mesma frase.

(entre outros verbos possíveis, ou sem usar verbo)
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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby Luís » 2014-12-21, 13:55

I agree with osias, no one would say "a água está salgada" unless they had been there before and it wasn't salty that time (which isn't very likely).

I suppose these are all variations of the main rule. You can't change the salt in the sea or a lake, but you can change it when it comes to soup. If it's too bland, you can add some salt and voilà, now it's salty.

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Re: "Ser" and "Estar" in Portuguese

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-02-14, 6:15

Apparently, the Ganga/Ganges River in India is becoming saltier. So if someone had been to that river before it started becoming saltier, then went there again more recently, could they say, "O rio Ganges está salgado"? :lol:


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