Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Moderator: Luís

thomasb
Posts: 11
Joined: 2009-03-02, 17:07
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby thomasb » 2009-09-18, 17:28

In European Portuguese pronunciation, does the final o always sound like [u]? Are there any exceptions?

How about the final s? Does it always sound like [ʃ]? Any exceptions?

Thanks a bunch!

User avatar
sergiolopes
Posts: 1007
Joined: 2006-08-11, 18:08
Real Name: ['sɛɾʒju 'lɔpɨʃ]
Gender: male
Location: Matosinhos
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby sergiolopes » 2009-09-18, 20:48

thomasb wrote:In European Portuguese pronunciation, does the final o always sound like [u]? Are there any exceptions?

Yes, if it's not stressed and it's not part of a nasal diphthong (such as ão): [ũ]

thomasb wrote:How about the final s? Does it always sound like [ʃ]? Any exceptions?

It sounds like [ʃ] unless:
- next word begins with a vowel: /z/
- next word begins with a voiced consonant: /ʒ/

thomasb
Posts: 11
Joined: 2009-03-02, 17:07
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby thomasb » 2009-09-19, 22:37

Thanks sergiolopes. I'm taking up Portuguese (yet once more) and beginning (again) at the beginning with pronunciation and this time around I'm finally getting over those two strange peculiarities (the final o as [u] and final s as [ʃ]), which have been stumbling blocks to my making progress in the language, among other things.


sergiolopes wrote:
thomasb wrote:In European Portuguese pronunciation, does the final o always sound like [u]? Are there any exceptions?

Yes, if it's not stressed and it's not part of a nasal diphthong (such as ão): [ũ]


I was listening to a BBC Portuguese lesson and it seemed like I heard the speaker pronounce the final o as [o] in "tinto" and suppress the o completely in "vinho" when he pronounced "vinho tinto." Could that be an exception?

Here's the site where I heard it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/portuguese/talk/cafe/usefulphrases.shtml

User avatar
sergiolopes
Posts: 1007
Joined: 2006-08-11, 18:08
Real Name: ['sɛɾʒju 'lɔpɨʃ]
Gender: male
Location: Matosinhos
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby sergiolopes » 2009-09-20, 17:05

thomasb wrote:which have been stumbling blocks to my making progress in the language, among other things.
Although it may appear weird to a foreigner, it's a small thing to memorize and soon it'll seem natural to you. Just think what other people have to go through when learning english and trying to figure out how to pronounce thought, though and tough. :D
To add insult to injury, you may find some regional variations where a final -s is also read as [ʒ] if followed by a vowel.

I was listening to a BBC Portuguese lesson and it seemed like I heard the speaker pronounce the final o as [o] in "tinto" and suppress the o completely in "vinho" when he pronounced "vinho tinto." Could that be an exception?

Mind you, the speakers have a very good accent but they're either Portuguese people living abroad for quite some time, or they're not native speakers. Their pronunciation of "leite", for instance, especially of the female speaker, is very revealing.
The -o in tinto is always [u], and the -o in vinho should also be pronounced. Elision occurs (including with final -o) in several cases , but in this particular case I believe it's best to pronounce it.

thomasb
Posts: 11
Joined: 2009-03-02, 17:07
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby thomasb » 2009-09-23, 17:40

sergiolopes wrote:
thomasb wrote:which have been stumbling blocks to my making progress in the language, among other things.
Although it may appear weird to a foreigner, it's a small thing to memorize and soon it'll seem natural to you. Just think what other people have to go through when learning english and trying to figure out how to pronounce thought, though and tough. :D


You're telling me! I have to look up the pronunciation of English words sometimes. :lol:

varandasi
Posts: 1
Joined: 2009-09-24, 21:39
Real Name: ifv
Gender: male
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re:

Postby varandasi » 2009-09-24, 21:42

Luisa. wrote:
Luís wrote:Não há muitos portugueses por aqui, mas se por acaso algum estiver a ler, o Diário de Notícias está a oferecer CDs e livros de línguas gratuitamente na compra do jornal! :D



Luís...

agradeço imensamente pela notícia :)
mas sabes se há algum material online ou que possa ser distribuído para outros países além de Portugal?


Olá,
Estou a criar uma série de podcasts gratuitos com o objectivo de ensinar português de portugal:
https://learnportuguese.portuguespodcast.com

thomasb
Posts: 11
Joined: 2009-03-02, 17:07
Country: US United States (United States)

pronomes possessives

Postby thomasb » 2009-09-29, 13:32

Olà!
I read that possessive pronouns can sometimes agree with the gender and number of the possessor. When does this happen?

Also, I thought that possessive pronouns came in front of the noun modified, but then I ran across this sentence: Foi idéia minha. When do you put them after the noun?

Finally, is the definite article before the possessive pronoun optional? I read that sometimes you don't have to put them. Unforuntely, the place where I read of all these quirks did not explain when they occurred. :?

Muito obrigado! :)

User avatar
sergiolopes
Posts: 1007
Joined: 2006-08-11, 18:08
Real Name: ['sɛɾʒju 'lɔpɨʃ]
Gender: male
Location: Matosinhos
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby sergiolopes » 2009-09-29, 20:46

Olá.

Trying to keep it simple:
1. Possessive pronouns always agree in gender and number:
- O meu carro. A minha casa. Os meus amigos. As minhas calças.

2. Usually, that happens when the indefinite article is used.
- Foste visitar um amigo teu?
- Sim, fui visitar o meu melhor amigo.
"Idéia", by the way, follows the current Brazilian norm. In European Portuguese we use "ideia".

3. I can't think of a case where it can be optional. Not using them makes you sound Brazilian.

User avatar
loqu
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 11835
Joined: 2007-08-15, 21:12
Real Name: Daniel
Gender: male
Location: Sevilla [seˈβiʝa] (Andalucía), born in Cádiz [ˈkaði]

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby loqu » 2009-09-29, 20:48

I may be wrong, but I learnt that you can drop the article when it comes to familiar relationships, like minha mãe, meu irmão. Is it right in European Portuguese? It's the norm I've always tried to learn.
Dir la veritat sempre és revolucionari.

User avatar
sergiolopes
Posts: 1007
Joined: 2006-08-11, 18:08
Real Name: ['sɛɾʒju 'lɔpɨʃ]
Gender: male
Location: Matosinhos
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby sergiolopes » 2009-09-29, 21:12

You did remind me of something. When used as vocative, the article is indeed not used:
- Meu filho, por que não me ouves?
- Diz-me, meu amigo, como foram as férias?
Apart from that, it'd only be dropped due to some regional, non-standard variation, or some poetic license.

User avatar
Luís
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6618
Joined: 2002-07-12, 22:44
Gender: male
Location: Lisboa
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby Luís » 2009-09-29, 22:57

sergiolopes wrote:"Idéia", by the way, follows the current Brazilian norm. In European Portuguese we use "ideia".


Actually, not anymore. Brazil has already adopted the new orthographic rules, so the current norm over there is "ideia" as well ;)
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

thomasb
Posts: 11
Joined: 2009-03-02, 17:07
Country: US United States (United States)

direct objects

Postby thomasb » 2009-10-01, 15:38

Aprendo muito lendo este thread e estou único em a página 3! :o
E muito gosto das lições do Luís ao começo. São muito útils. Obrigado!
Recomendaria-as qualquem um ...

[I'm learning a lot reading this thread and I'm only on page 3! And I really like Luís's lessons at the beginning. Thanks! I would recommend them to anyone...

Ok, I better leave off here and study some more :mrgreen:

Luís wrote:Agora, por causa da questão do 'reanimar-lo', lembrei-me de falar sobre a colocação dos pronomes.

Podes encontrar o texto completo aqui: http://clientes.netvisao.pt/luca/portugal/pronomes.htm

Geralmente coloca-se -o, -a, -os, -as a seguir ao verbo:

Como-o
Como-a
Tenho-os
Vejo-as

MAS, quando a forma verbal termina em -R, -Z, ou -S, retira-se a letra final e usa-se as formas de pronome lo, la, los, las :

Retirá-lo (Retirar + o)
Comê-lo (Comer + o)
Fazê-lo (Fazer + o)
Lavá-la (Lavar + a)[/b]

ainda, quando a forma verbal termina numa vogal/ditongo nasal, usa-se no, na, nos, nas :

Fazem-no (Fazem + o)
põe-no (Põe + o)
comem-na (Comem + a)

É isso :-)


Do you have some examples with endings in S and Z? I've read that you use the lo,la,las,los for infinitives, which of course end in r, but when would they end in S or Z?

User avatar
Luís
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6618
Joined: 2002-07-12, 22:44
Gender: male
Location: Lisboa
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby Luís » 2009-10-01, 20:06

thomasb wrote:Aprendo muito lendo este thread e estou único em a apenas na página 3! :o
E muito gosto muito das lições do Luís ao no começo. São muito útils úteis. Obrigado!
Recomendaria-as Recomendá-las-ia* a qualquem qualquer um ...


Thanks :)

I wrote those lessons 7 (!) years ago, time sure flies... :para:

thomasb wrote:Do you have some examples with endings in S and Z? I've read that you use the lo,la,las,los for infinitives, which of course end in r, but when would they end in S or Z?


Ele faz (he does)
Ele fá-lo (he does it)

Nós queremos (we want)
Nós queremo-la (we want it/her)
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

Stawrberry
Posts: 906
Joined: 2008-06-09, 16:00

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby Stawrberry » 2009-12-23, 16:41

What would be a good Portuguese radio station to listen to?

User avatar
sergiolopes
Posts: 1007
Joined: 2006-08-11, 18:08
Real Name: ['sɛɾʒju 'lɔpɨʃ]
Gender: male
Location: Matosinhos
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby sergiolopes » 2009-12-24, 15:19

Depende do que procuras. Música portuguesa? Notícias?
Eu normalmente só ouço a Radar. Mas a Antena 3 também é boa. Para notícias tens a TSF.
"Books permit us to voyage through time, to tap the wisdom of our ancestors."

Native speaker of Portuguese, who's fluent in English, intermediate in Spanish and has some passive knowledge of French. My passion is Greek, which I study along with Dutch. I dream of one day being fluent in Icelandic.

Stawrberry
Posts: 906
Joined: 2008-06-09, 16:00

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby Stawrberry » 2009-12-28, 17:15

Obrigada! A TSF é muito útil. :)

User avatar
ILuvEire
Posts: 10398
Joined: 2007-12-08, 17:41
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby ILuvEire » 2010-01-04, 6:57

Quero um(a?) podcast no português europeu, sabem um que é bem? Obrigado :)
[flag]de[/flag] [flag]da[/flag] [flag]fr-qc[/flag] [flag]haw[/flag] [flag]he[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]
Current focus: [flag]ga[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag]
Facebook | tumblr | Twitter
“We need to make books cool again. If you go home with somebody and they don't have books, don't fuck them.” —John Waters

User avatar
Osias
Posts: 5978
Joined: 2007-09-09, 17:38
Real Name: Osias Junior
Gender: male
Location: Vitória
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby Osias » 2010-01-04, 10:52

ILuvEire wrote:Quero um(a?) podcast no em português europeu, sabem um que é bem bom? Obrigado :)
Não. (só corrigindo)
2017 est l'année du  (fr) et de l' (de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.

User avatar
sergiolopes
Posts: 1007
Joined: 2006-08-11, 18:08
Real Name: ['sɛɾʒju 'lɔpɨʃ]
Gender: male
Location: Matosinhos
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby sergiolopes » 2010-01-04, 12:42

Para ficar 100% correcto deveria ser assim:
ILuvEire wrote:... conhecem algum que seja bom ...


E não ouço podcasts em português :P. Se disseres que temas te interessam, talvez te possa ajudar a encontrar algum.
"Books permit us to voyage through time, to tap the wisdom of our ancestors."

Native speaker of Portuguese, who's fluent in English, intermediate in Spanish and has some passive knowledge of French. My passion is Greek, which I study along with Dutch. I dream of one day being fluent in Icelandic.

User avatar
Osias
Posts: 5978
Joined: 2007-09-09, 17:38
Real Name: Osias Junior
Gender: male
Location: Vitória
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Re: Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby Osias » 2010-01-04, 13:15

sergiolopes wrote:Para ficar 100% correcto deveria ser assim:
ILuvEire wrote:... conhecem algum que seja bom ...




Ok, embora possa ser o caso em Portugal, devo dizer que no Brasil é comum falar "sabe algum que seja bom?" ou "sabe de algum que...?".
2017 est l'année du  (fr) et de l' (de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.


Return to “Portuguese (Português)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest