European vs. Brazilian

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zeme
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European vs. Brazilian

Postby zeme » 2010-03-23, 22:05

What are your opinions on this?
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-03-23, 22:22

Most speakers in Toronto speak EP so I've gotten used to it. But both have features I like and dislike. I think I prefer BP just because it's more widespread.

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby sergiolopes » 2010-03-23, 23:28

Opinions on what? I didn't know there was a battle going on.
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby zeme » 2010-03-24, 1:47

Well just your biased opinions about them presented with a comparative approach. The thing is that sometime this year I'll begin studying Portuguese, but I'm not sure which. I'm wondering how they differ, mostly. I'm aware of the fact that there are more people in Brazil than there are in Portugal, but that's not really important. I guess I'm wondering whether they differ in writing, or is it only the accent. I tend to be attracted by the one that's harder to pronounce, too, as it makes it easier to understand the other "easy" version later on (I'm thinking Quebecois vs France French)
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby zeme » 2010-03-24, 1:50

Oh yeah and most Canadians speaking Portuguese are from Portugal, so that's a point for European. There's quite a few of them too, so perhaps it'll be the first language I study to be actually "useful" in my environment.
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-03-24, 2:59

I would say the differences between EP and BP are about as salient as those between AME and BE. So you'll be understood just fine either way, but you will have a noticable accent. Like English again, there are differences in spelling but they are slight.

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby sergiolopes » 2010-03-24, 10:31

zeme wrote:Well just your biased opinions about them presented with a comparative approach. The thing is that sometime this year I'll begin studying Portuguese, but I'm not sure which. I'm wondering how they differ, mostly. I'm aware of the fact that there are more people in Brazil than there are in Portugal, but that's not really important. I guess I'm wondering whether they differ in writing, or is it only the accent. I tend to be attracted by the one that's harder to pronounce, too, as it makes it easier to understand the other "easy" version later on (I'm thinking Quebecois vs France French)


As someone told me yesterday, asking this is also asking for trouble - especially if you want biased opinions! :) I'll try to remain unbiased as this type of discussions, when done by natives, can quickly go youtube-like and absurd. :wink:

In short, I agree with those that said that the differences are somewhat similar to those between American and British English, although with some nuances.

The first thing you'll notice is a difference in pronunciation. As far as I know, Brazilians have a more difficult time understanding Portuguese people speaking than we understanding them. Our vowels are more closed, and that's why you'll sometimes (many times, actually) hear a Brazilian say that we don't pronounce the vowels - a quite uneducated statement. We're also more exposed to Brazilian TV, so we're more used to hearing them. As a non-native, you can judge for yourself which sounds more beautiful to you.

There are also differences in spelling (minute), in vocabulary and grammar. This is where the American/British English comparison fails. To the best of my knowledge, British English is considered posh and educated by American natives. That is not the case with Brazilians. European Portuguese would sound archaic to their ears, whereas the style of Brazilian Portuguese will sound a bit uneducated and broken to us.

As for written Portuguese, regardless of the dialect you choose, you'll be able to understand the other without any problem. You'll probably feel like an American when reading words like "shan't", "needn't", "learnt" or "cheque", but you'll quickly get used to it.
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby zeme » 2010-03-24, 13:14

After listening to Lion King's - Can You Feel The Love Tonight in both versions, I find that:

European Portuguese is full of sexy Slavic "sh" "sh" sounds, whereas Brazilian sounds like Spanish spoken with a slight French accent with an Italian flow.

Europeans roll their R's but Brazilians pronounce them somewhat like in French but not quite.

Brazilian definitely sounds easier to pronounce and I personally find European more charming.

In addition to that, European is less commonly spoken throughout the world, which is yet another reason to pick it. I'm going with European Portuguese all the way.
:partyhat:
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Stawrberry » 2010-03-24, 13:21

It's hard to find good resources for European Portuguese though.

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby sergiolopes » 2010-03-24, 14:55

zeme wrote:Europeans roll their R's but Brazilians pronounce them somewhat like in French but not quite.

Actually, standard European Portuguese has 2 different ways of pronouncing them: the alveolar tap [ɾ] and the voiced uvular fricative [ʁ] (which I would call the French R). There are still some regions where [r] (the trilled one) is pronounced instead of the latter, however.

zeme wrote:I'm going with European Portuguese all the way.
:partyhat:

Glad you made that choice. Welcome aboard! :waytogo:
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby zeme » 2010-03-24, 15:41

It's hard to find good resources for European Portuguese though.

Really? Darn! :x

sergiolopes wrote:
zeme wrote:Europeans roll their R's but Brazilians pronounce them somewhat like in French but not quite.

Actually, standard European Portuguese has 2 different ways of pronouncing them: the alveolar tap [ɾ] and the voiced uvular fricative [ʁ] (which I would call the French R). There are still some regions where [r] (the trilled one) is pronounced instead of the latter, however.

Interesting.. Shouldn't be an issue though.

zeme wrote:I'm going with European Portuguese all the way.
:partyhat:
Glad you made that choice. Welcome aboard! :waytogo:

:lol: hehe I'm not aboard yet. In a few months I'll be.
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-03-24, 19:54

European Portuguese is full of sexy Slavic "sh" "sh" sounds, whereas Brazilian sounds like Spanish spoken with a slight French accent with an Italian flow.
This is what I hate about European Portuguese (and some Brazilian dialects as well.) I think <s> and <z> should be pronounced the way they look.
Europeans roll their R's but Brazilians pronounce them somewhat like in French but not quite.
Only some Europeans, and not all Brazilians.

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby sergiolopes » 2010-03-24, 20:09

Talib wrote:This is what I hate about European Portuguese (and some Brazilian dialects as well.) I think <s> and <z> should be pronounced the way they look.

Just like in measure and dessert, I suppose! :ohwell:
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Stawrberry » 2010-03-24, 20:34

Talib wrote:This is what I hate about European Portuguese (and some Brazilian dialects as well.) I think <s> and <z> should be pronounced the way they look.


Image

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-03-24, 20:45

You really got me there. It's not like millions of Brazilians have no problem saying [s] and [z].

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby sergiolopes » 2010-03-24, 21:41

Talib wrote:You really got me there. It's not like millions of Brazilians have no problem saying [s] and [z].


Not sure I'm following you. Who said anything about having the ability to pronounce the sounds ? :)
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby zeme » 2010-03-24, 21:48

:mrgreen: this is getting exciting! :partyhat:
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-03-24, 23:00

Not sure I'm following you. Who said anything about having the ability to pronounce the sounds ? :)
Nothing - it's just where they appear in each dialect. I personally dislike how EP speakers realize coda /s/ and /z/ as postalveolars. And I dislike how BP speakers affricate /t/ and /d/ before [i]. Neither dialect is better or worse to me. I only prefer BP because it has more speakers.

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Rivaldo » 2010-03-28, 1:03

there are many different accents in portuguese spoken in brasil, some very different from others. maybe a good part of materials are centred in são paulo or rio de janeiro speak and a default of "erudit" talk, but althought this might be present in tv and formal stuf, real speaking has sometimes a complete different taste.

and what about african portuguese? i think the pronounce is much more like the one spoken in portugal, that's another point for you learning this one.

have you considered also the option of learning both? cause, well, they aren't that much different anyway

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby zeme » 2010-03-28, 2:12

ultimately I'll learn both, yeah
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