Pronunciation

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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Aleco » 2009-05-09, 14:53

Weird song :P Yeah, I get you completely now ;) Thanks!
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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Kenny » 2009-05-10, 14:14

Hm, I remember something about "te" becoming /tʃɪ/ at the end of words in Brazilian Portuguese (the pronunciation of which I absolutely adore :oops:) . In which areas does that happen (if it exists indeed and it isn't just my memory playing a joke on me :D)?
The other funny thing is /ɹ/ (as an allophonic variation for r in the capital or where else) as I've never really heard it outside of English (okay, Dutch has it too...I guess). Could you provide me with a video where it occurs in speech? :ohwell: :yep:

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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Aleco » 2009-05-10, 16:40

Faroese has it too :P
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foMd5RZIfcI 00:22)

I've heard te/ti and de/di become [tʃi] and [dʒi] respectively in all Brazilian speech I've heard up until now. I guess it's quite common :hmm:
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Re: Pronunciation

Postby algorrém » 2009-05-10, 18:07

Quite a few Brazilian dialects have the [ɹ]. They're usually called "caipira", even though they can be quite different from one another. They're not very prestigious, and people from the coast like to mock them. Here's some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHMahiG0u8w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXP5ikUlncg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiCnSK9PHEI

About the "o" turning into "u" (and "e" turning into "i"), I don't know what is the proper name for it, but I think here it is usually called "vocalic reduction". In the more "standard" Brazilian accent reduction only occurs at final unstressed o/e, but some accents tend to reduce all unstressed o/e, and there's even some other accents without any reduction at all. As far as I can tell, in standard European Portuguese they tend to reduce all unstressed o/e.

Finally, yes, the te/ti and de/di becoming [tʃi] and [dʒi] in Brazil is very common, and I think it can pretty much be considered "standard".

EDIT: I've just found this video about some Northeasterner guy trying to speak gaúcho accent, notice his trouble with the [tʃi]:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm7fQ7N5D5I
O rei mandou me chamá / Pra casar com sua filha / Só de dote ele me dará / Oropa, França, Bahia / Me alembrei do meu ranchinho / Da roça, do meu feijão / Ai!, seu rei, não quero, não!

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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Kurumin » 2009-05-10, 19:32

The final vowels of "tantos" and "mentes" [ for example (that happens with other words with FINAL E and FINAL O)] may be elided in fast speech.

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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Aleco » 2009-05-10, 20:32

Kurumin wrote:The final vowels of "tantos" and "mentes" [ for example (that happens with other words with FINAL E and FINAL O)] may be elided in fast speech.

So that means that -te- in mentes isn'r pronounced [tʃi]? :hmm:
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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Osias » 2009-05-11, 11:34

KennyHun wrote:Hm, I remember something about "te" becoming /tʃɪ/ at the end of words in Brazilian Portuguese (the pronunciation of which I absolutely adore :oops:) .


As far I understood, "e" becomes "i" in unstressed positions. So "te" becomes ti", but also "be" becomes "bi" and all the others. "Ti", then, is realized /tʃɪ/.

In which areas does that happen ?

In most, except in Northeast states. I mean /tʃɪ/. There "te" becomes ti" but is realized "ti", just like regular "ti"'s.

My mother, when I was a child, moved to Sergipe and become a kids teacher, when in Portuguese classes she was dictating some word like "tia" (aunt) the kids asked then "uh, how do we speel that? t-h-i-a?".

The other funny thing is /ɹ/ (as an allophonic variation for r in the capital or where else) as I've never really heard it outside of English (okay, Dutch has it too...I guess). Could you provide me with a video where it occurs in speech? :ohwell: :yep:

My wife speaks that way and living here since February and people recognize her as from São Paulo in few seconds.

algorrém wrote:Quite a few Brazilian dialects have the [ɹ]. They're usually called "caipira", even though they can be quite different from one another. They're not very prestigious, and people from the coast like to mock them.

The word "caipira" usually means "hillbilly" or something like that. Ironic, cause the place my wife comes from is more urban and advanced than here.
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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Aleco » 2009-05-11, 14:14

I've gathered up more questions :mrgreen: If it's alright?

- Is it common that all r's are realized as [ʁ]/[x]?
- Are the final r's in verbs like ser and ir pronounced like normal r's, since the words are so short?
- Is using the expression "Ter que ___" common when stating that you have to do something?
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Re: Pronunciation

Postby algorrém » 2009-05-11, 16:10

Aleco wrote:
Kurumin wrote:The final vowels of "tantos" and "mentes" [ for example (that happens with other words with FINAL E and FINAL O)] may be elided in fast speech.

So that means that -te- in mentes isn'r pronounced [tʃi]? :hmm:


That's right. I don't know how common it is, though. When speaking fast, I would say something like [t̪s] (or [t̪z] if followed by a vowel). That "t" may perhaps not be a pure, clear dental [t̪], but I'm not very good at phonetics anyway. I would read out loud "Que mentes atentas!" pretty much like I would "Que mentzatentas!", if I had to do it fast enough. Anyway, I think beginners shouldn't worry about these fine pronunciation points, at least I usually don't.
O rei mandou me chamá / Pra casar com sua filha / Só de dote ele me dará / Oropa, França, Bahia / Me alembrei do meu ranchinho / Da roça, do meu feijão / Ai!, seu rei, não quero, não!

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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Osias » 2009-05-11, 16:25

Aleco wrote:- Is it common that all r's are realized as [ʁ]/[x]?

I suck at phonetics so I never "see" it by myself, but I read several places something similar. Also, aspirated sounds. Except the intervocalic r's, of course. Give a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_phonology to see if you understand better than me.

- Are the final r's in verbs like ser and ir pronounced like normal r's, since the words are so short?

Elision is common but prestigious. But, yes, you'll heard a lot of "sê" and "í".

- Is using the expression "Ter que ___" common when stating that you have to do something?

Yes, as far I can remember now, it's the informal for "Deve-se ___" like the example above:
"Tem que lavar as mãos antes de comer" - informal
"Deve-se lavar as mãos antes das refeições " - formal
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Re: Pronunciation

Postby algorrém » 2009-05-11, 16:26

osias wrote:In most, except in Northeast states. I mean /tʃɪ/. There "te" becomes ti" but is realized "ti", just like regular "ti"'s.

My mother, when I was a child, moved to Sergipe and become a kids teacher, when in Portuguese classes she was dictating some word like "tia" (aunt) the kids asked then "uh, how do we speel that? t-h-i-a?".

Also there are many places in the South (in all the three states, I think) where people always say "te"/"ti" like [t̪e]/[t̪i]. They are usually asked to say "leite quente dói o dente da gente" :). On the other hand, they like to say that we, [tʃɪ]-speakers, don't really know how to speak, since we pronounce words "wrongly", while they always pronounce them "exactly as written". Me and my cousin used to mock each other's accent all the time over this issue.
O rei mandou me chamá / Pra casar com sua filha / Só de dote ele me dará / Oropa, França, Bahia / Me alembrei do meu ranchinho / Da roça, do meu feijão / Ai!, seu rei, não quero, não!

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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Osias » 2009-05-11, 16:35

Yes, I forgot to tell about South... But those as little issues that a beginner must not worry about much... Just a litlle.
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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Psi-Lord » 2009-05-11, 19:53

In my variant, not only (mostly) post-tonic vowels get reduced, but final, unstressed vowels are usually devoiced, which may give some people the impression that they’re not pronounced at all. Egein once asked me why I didn’t pronounce them, when in fact I do. :)
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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Aleco » 2009-05-11, 20:05

Thank you very much :) Even though there are things I shouldn't be worrying about, I still finding it very interesting! :D
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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Osias » 2009-05-11, 20:27

De nada... Desculpa por não conseguir responder direito as partes fonéticas.
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Re: Pronunciation

Postby sergiolopes » 2009-05-12, 17:05

Aleco wrote:Thank you very much :) Even though there are things I shouldn't be worrying about, I still finding it very interesting! :D


You're not alone! :D
I also find myself much more concerned with greek pronunciation than with learning properly greek passive voice :oops: (hoping ego doesn't read this thread!)

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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Aleco » 2009-05-12, 17:19

sergiolopes wrote:
Aleco wrote:Thank you very much :) Even though there are things I shouldn't be worrying about, I still finding it very interesting! :D

You're not alone! :D
I also find myself much more concerned with greek pronunciation than with learning properly greek passive voice :oops: (hoping ego doesn't read this thread!)

I could've written that! Well, I don't learn Greek, but it could be like this with me and Dutch =P Been learning it for years, but I still make a lot of grammatical errors because I care more about pronunciation xD
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Re: Pronunciation

Postby kman1 » 2009-05-17, 18:38

I really love the way Brazilian Portuguese (BP) sounds also. Before attempting to read BP (which I'll get to later), as always I looked various pronunciation guides a bit. And I went through the comments here. BP pronunciation is very strange to me. It is so different from what you're hearing. still cool all the same time to me. Some thoughts

How do you pronounce excepção? And is -ei- and -em pronounced the same? [ɛɪ]?

in Brazilian Portuguese (BP), excepção is the intial ‘e’ IS pronounced correct? therefore if it is preceded by word ending in ‘s’ such ‘mais’ then the ‘s’ of ‘mais’ would be ‘z’ and the ‘e’ WOULD be pronounced. am I correct?

Hm, I remember something about "te" becoming /tʃɪ/ at the end of words in Brazilian Portuguese (the pronunciation of which I absolutely adore :oops:) .

regarding pronunciation of ‘te’ in BP, the ‘e’ is silent if 'te' is by itself, right? I think that ‘o’/’e’ are often silent at the end of words.

------------------------------------------------

Would you all mind taking a look at my notes that I have taken regarding BP pronunciation. I hope this can give you some clarification regarding Portuguese pronunciation, Aleco as long as everything is correct and I'm not missing any important points.

>>A word ending in a vowel, m or s is stressed on the second-to-last syllable.
>example au-to, fa-lam, au-tos, lu-zes

>>A word ending in a consonant, i or u is stressed on the last syllable.
>example fa-lar, hin-du

accent marks - http://www.geocities.com/email_theguy/n ... _pc3_b.htm

a cut
e see
i see
o too
u too

"h" is silent
but "ch" sounds like "sh" in she
"j" makes the sound of "s" in treasure
coro k
cinto s
guru g
gente ‘s’ as leisure
dar d
idade ‘j’ as jean

A
written á example es-tá
unless it's found before m or n, where it's written â example câ-ma-ra vs. ca-ma

‘e’ pronounced ‘i’ ( igloo) -> 1. occurs in the word for "and", and also initially when unstressed before a sibilant, written s, or x pronounced /z/ or /S/. Then often very short or fully absent.
2. before a vowel -> compreender / se existe
3. when it appears in the context between "p" and "r" at the beginning of a word i.e peruca

* ‘e’ is often silent at the end of a word. *

usually te/ti and de/di becomes [tʃi] and [dʒi] at the end of words i.e. mentes,

"o" silent at the end of a word when it follows ‘ç’ braço, danço, etc.


nasal vowels
"am" and "an" sound like the u in cut but pronounced through the nose ã
unless you find it at the end of a word, where it's pronounced somewhat like the ow of cow, but through the nose ão

"em" and "en" sound like the e in they (without the final "y" sound) but pronounced through the nose
unless you find it at the end of a word, where it's pronounced like the ey of they, but through the nose

"im" and "in" sound like the ee in seem, but pronounced through the nose.

"om" and "on" sound like the o in tow, but pronounced through the nose.

"um" and "un" sound like the oo in soon, but pronounced through the nose.

"ãe" sounds like the y in try, but through the nose
"õe" sounds like the oy in boy, but through the nose

al/el/il/ol/ul sounds like [w]

‘c’ or ‘p’ is often silent before ‘c’ ‘ç’ or ‘t’

"ex" at the beginning of a word makes roughly the sound of "ays" in days
sce/sci sounds like [s]
sça/sço sounds like [s]
exce/exci sounds like [s]
excl/exp/ext sounds like [s]
exa/exe/exi/exo sounds like [z]
In BP, the letter pairs sc and xc are also pronounced /s/ before e or i.

X
as ship before consonant, beginning a word, or beginning a syllable extra extra
as ship in aix/eix/ux plus vowel caixa
exame [z] - ‘ex’ at the beginning of word + a vowel

• "CH": approximately as in English "shoe".
• "LH": as in English "million".
• "NH": as in French "champignon".
• "RR": trilled "r".
• "SS" (in all contexts): as in English "sun".
• "SC": before "E" and "I", the same as "SS"; before other letters, as in "skip".
• "QU": before "E" and "I", as in "kettle"; before "A" or "O", as in "quality".
• "XC": as in "easy", "ask", "axis", or "essence", depending on the word.
• "ZZ": as in "Betsy".
• "TCH": as in "church".
S http://www.geocities.com/email_theguy/o ... uguese.htm
after consonant or beginning a word, as in sick senso feeling
between vowels, as in is tesão stress OR meus olhos
before unvoiced consonant, as in sick estão they are, you are
before voiced consonant, as in is o mês não é... the month is not...
• If it ends a syllable, and the next letter is a B,D,G,L,M,N,R,V,Z it sounds like the J (see above). Example: "Lisboa" (Lisbon)
• If it ends a syllable or an isolated word, and the next letter is a C,F,P,T it sounds like the "sh" in English "shine". Examples: "isto" (this) and all the plurals.

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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Psi-Lord » 2009-05-17, 20:46

kman1 wrote:in Brazilian Portuguese (BP), excepção is the intial ‘e’ IS pronounced correct?

First, an important detail – excepção is the European spelling; in Brazil, we spell it exceção, with no <p>.

Then, to my ears, the first <e> of exceção is always [e]. Never reduced to [ i ], and not even close to getting silent: [eseˈsɐ͠w].

kman1 wrote:therefore if it is preceded by word ending in ‘s’ such ‘mais’ then the ‘s’ of ‘mais’ would be ‘z’ and the ‘e’ WOULD be pronounced. am I correct?

Yes. A syllable-final [s] followed by a vowel or a voiced consonant becomes [z].

kman1 wrote:
Hm, I remember something about "te" becoming /tʃɪ/ at the end of words in Brazilian Portuguese (the pronunciation of which I absolutely adore :oops:) .

regarding pronunciation of ‘te’ in BP, the ‘e’ is silent if 'te' is by itself, right? I think that ‘o’/’e’ are often silent at the end of words.

There are two things going on here, actually.

If you take <te>, the first thing to know is whether the <e> itself reduces to <i> or not. It basically does in situations where it would regardless of what consonant comes before it – in the standard, in final, unstressed syllables. So, I pronounce telha as [ˈteʎɐ], but leite as [ˈlejtʃi].

As for <o> and <e> being silent at the end of words, I’m not sure I know what you mean. If you mean they’re reduced, then it’s indeed true. However, only in a few dialects (such as my own) they’ll become devoiced, and therefore sound as if they’ve gone truly silent.

I’m keeping the transcriptions more or less broad, by the way.

By the way, although I’ve seen people use [ɪ] and [ʊ] for reduced vowels in Portuguese, I was never taught that, and so never got into doing it myself. I’d leave that for someone with experience in phonetics and phonology to discuss, though.

kman1 wrote:>>A word ending in a vowel, m or s is stressed on the second-to-last syllable.
>example au-to, fa-lam, au-tos, lu-zes

>>A word ending in a consonant, i or u is stressed on the last syllable.
>example fa-lar, hin-du

That’s right as long as you remember that this is part of a much bigger picture. The Portuguese accentuation system is economical. What does that mean? That means that, if most words in a certain group end in a particular letter/sound, than those that also do, but which are stressed in a different syllable from the majority, will take an accent. This is what the lines you cite above stand for. Example – most words ending in <r> have the stress on the last syllable, as falar /faˈlaR/; because of that, words that end in <r> but which have the stress on a different syllable will take an accent, as dólar /ˈdolaR/.

I personally think using English to suggest phonology in most other languages can be awful, so I’ll refrain from commenting further. The Wikipedia page on Portuguese phonology can probably be more useful for those who can read IPA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_phonology.
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Re: Pronunciation

Postby Aleco » 2009-05-18, 19:50

I'll thank you as well for explaining, Psi-Lord :)

Where in Brazil are S's pronounced like in Portugal? (Meaning like /S/ in some cases) Is it common?
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