Português-ILE

[ILuvEire]

Bom Dia!

I read the pronunciation chapter of my Portuguese book, so needless to say I have a few questions.

[All questions are over Brazilian Portuguese]

1) My book uses a crappy romanization that causes some confusion. Is natal pronounced [nat_dal] or [nat_daU] or something?

2) Is qu- [k_w] or just [k]?

3) My book says that -r- is pronounced /r\/. But that can't be right! Also, what about r-? Is it pronounced /h/? I do understand that -rr- is pronounced /r/ though.

4) My book also says that final s and z are pronounced /S/ and /Z/ in Rio de Janeiro. Is the Rio dialect the most common one, or is there another one?

[Osias]

Bom Dia!

Bom dia! Espero hoje não cometer as gafes da semana passada!

1) My book uses a crappy romanization that causes some confusion. Is natal pronounced [nat_dal] or [nat_daU] or something?

Why is that "d" doing there? I don't know how that "crappy romanization " works, so I can't help, but at least I can say the ending "l" is more like "w" like "nah-taw".[/quote]

2) Is qu- [k_w] or just [k]?

It depends on the following vowel, and o the umlaut that apparently was abolished by a recent spelling agreement and... Ok, let me explain what you'll find in most text written until now:

before a and o is kw:
quando, quota.
before e and i is k:
quero, quinta-feira

before e and i with "trema" is kw:
conseqüência, liqüidificador

3) My book says that -r- is pronounced /r\/. But that can't be right!

Why? You mean r between vowels?

Also, what about r-? Is it pronounced /h/? I do understand that -rr- is pronounced /r/ though.

It depends on the accent, r- and -rr- are - as far as I know - pronounced the same "inside" the same dialect, and then it can be /h/, /r/ or a third one more gutural like spanish "j". I'm sorry, but I mostly don't know the difference most of times... And in some places there's a retroflex variant like my girlfriend/bride accent, but you don't need to learn it now.

4) My book also says that final s and z are pronounced /S/ and /Z/ in Rio de Janeiro. Is the Rio dialect the most common one, or is there another one?

What people mostly identify with Rio de Janeiro accent/dialect are the differences with theirs, not the similarities. When you see someone outside the books talking about "Carioca accent" they're talking about the things they find strange there, not the ones that are the same. I think most accents/dialects here follow that pattern for the final s and z, but nobody thinks they're talking like Rio.

I don't know if I'm making myself clear. I recommend reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Portuguese

[loqu]

1) My book uses a crappy romanization that causes some confusion. Is natal pronounced [nat_dal] or [nat_daU] or something?

Why is that "d" doing there? I don't know how that "crappy romanization " works, so I can't help, but at least I can say the ending "l" is more like "w" like "nah-taw".

osias, the "d" (X-SAMPA t_d, in IPA t̪) means the "t" is dental. Indeed Portuguese 't' (and I'd dare say Romance 't') is dental and not alveolar like the Germanic one.

[Osias]

Obrigado. A propósito, escute a palavra natal aqui: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VJth64xFsM

[ILuvEire]

Should I even learn the tu conjugation for nouns? I don't think it is used in Brazilian Portuguese, just você.

[Osias]

You mean like "fizestes"? It's is actually used by street preachers

It's like "thou" in English, you can see it sometimes, but don't need to put much effort.

[loqu]

You mean like "fizestes"? It's is actually used by street preachers

It's like "thou" in English, you can see it sometimes, but don't need to put much effort.

I think he meant 'fizeste' (fazes, farás, fazias), though your 'fizestes' corresponds to 'vós' which in Brazil is also lost. Oh Brazilians, you keep on losing verbal persons!

[Osias]

You mean like "fizestes"? It's is actually used by street preachers

It's like "thou" in English, you can see it sometimes, but don't need to put much effort.

I think he meant 'fizeste' (fazes, farás, fazias), though your 'fizestes' corresponds to 'vós' which in Brazil is also lost. Oh Brazilians, you keep on losing verbal persons!

Are you sure?

[loqu]

Pretty sure, I learnt them that way

eu fiz, tu fizeste, ele fez
nós fizemos, vós fizestes, eles fizeram

am I wrong? Now you left me doubting.

[Osias]

Comparando "que tu me destes" com "que tu me deste" no google, parece que o segundo dá mais páginas. Mas acho que com tanta gente usando o esse a minha confusão foi natural.

[edumelo]

Should I even learn the tu conjugation for nouns? I don't think it is used in Brazilian Portuguese, just você.

It depends the place in Brazil you want to go. In Rio Grande do Sul and Santa Catarina states, as well as in some other regions (such as Manaus and Belém) they use only the "tu" form and "você" may sound strange to them. They understand it, but it sounds strange.

Oh Brazilians, you keep on losing verbal persons!

You mean we keep trying to make the things be the more easier as we can

Pretty sure, I learnt them that way

eu fiz, tu fizeste, ele fez
nós fizemos, vós fizestes, eles fizeram

am I wrong? Now you left me doubting.

I don't use the second conjugation form, so I'm not sure either. My suggestion: http://www.verbix.com, it's an online conjugation software to many languages.

[ILuvEire]

You guys just totally answered. Two Brazilians don't use it. Aren't you from São Paulo Osias? Or is it Rio de Janeiro?

EDIT: Never mind! It was the poster above me. Lol.

[Osias]

Não, eu moro aqui:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=-20. ... 19727&z=13

[Aakheperenre]

Should I even learn the tu conjugation for nouns? I don't think it is used in Brazilian Portuguese, just você.

It depends the place in Brazil you want to go. In Rio Grande do Sul and Santa Catarina states, as well as in some other regions (such as Manaus and Belém) they use only the "tu" form and "você" may sound strange to them. They understand it, but it sounds strange.

Yup. My father's from Santa Catarina so he uses tu & so do I. But I try to use a more "standard" way of speaking & writing so I often use você.

[ILuvEire]

Okay, so I want to help "jump-start" the Portuguese forum, so I'm going to do one of those 30 day learning-spree things. Because there are only 13 parts to my book, I'm going to shoot for one chapter every two days. This gives me four days of "leniency." I'll try to do a post on what I learned each section (yes, stolen from the Arabic forum), but I might not be able to get on every day.

CHAPTER 1

We went over greetings, pronunciation, subject pronouns, ser in the present tense, definite articles, indefinite articles, and plurals.

I have a couple questions:

Does the conjugation of você ever change from the conjugation of ele/ela? Are o senhor/a senhora used frequently, for "you"? It sounds like an archaism.

I'm using Colloquial Brazilian Portuguese btw.

[Osias]

Okay, so I want to help "jump-start" the Portuguese forum

Thanks!

Does the conjugation of você ever change from the conjugation of ele/ela?

No.

Something that happens is people using "tu" and "te" with this third person conjugation, like "se tu quiser" in some regions.

Are o senhor/a senhora used frequently, for "you"?

Yes.

It sounds like an archaism.

It does, indeed, when used to your parents and relatives, but people actually say that. Some families make their kids use it, some others like mine, incentive kids call parents by "você". When my cousin meets my mother and releases an "a senhora", she says "senhora é sua avó!". It makes her feel old.

I'm using Colloquial Brazilian Portuguese btw.

My cousins from the families that use "o senhor" e "a senhora" use that informal/colloquial conversations with their parents. It sounds bizarre to me, but I think they're too accustomed/"used-to-that", that they don't even notice.

[ILuvEire]

I'm only going to post on the odd days. I need two days per lesson, but I just review the previous one.

DAY 3:
Present indicative tense, the verb gostar de, the endings of adjectives and nouns, cardinal numbers, days of the week, muito/pouco, telling time, ser vs. estar, present tense of estar. Not too much was confusing. This chapter was very well explained.

I can now make basic sentences, like Chamo-me Tyler. Sou americano. Você é muita rica. Não gosto de viajar. etc.

[Osias]

>Chamo-me Tyler.
It's correct, but the most usual in informal speak is "me chamo Tyler". You'll find some reality-denying books calling it ungrammatical, but c'est la vie... I mean... "É a vida..."

>Você é muita rica.
In this case is "muito" because is an adverb, it translates "very". It would be "muita" or "muitos" when it translates "many" or "much" as in "Estou sentindo muita dor" or "Tem muitos carros na garagem".

>Não gosto de viajar.
Uma pena, nunca vai praticar as línguas que estuda.

[Osias]

Does the conjugation of você ever change from the conjugation of ele/ela? Are o senhor/a senhora used frequently, for "you"? It sounds like an archaism.

To make this point clear I'll post this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouD3VwhOZIw

It features several clips of mock interviews made by a fake reporter, Ernesto Varela, played by Marcelo Taz. The people being interviewed are mostly famous people, but also some beach girls. You can notice Taz using "o senhor" to address politicians and "você" to the girls on the beach.

PS: You don't need to watch the entire video.

[ILuvEire]

What's the difference between esse and aquele?

What's the difference between aí and lá/ali?