CoBB wrote:Can't L behave as a vowel too?
I know that r and l are vowels in Czech...
l is a vowel in Sanskrit too
but I don't get it
CoBB wrote:Can't L behave as a vowel too?
CoBB wrote:Can't L behave as a vowel too?
Car wrote:AFAIK (but you'd better wait for someone else to confirm it) you insert a schwa before the "r".
Bugi wrote:No, I wouldn't call r a vowel. It has some some characteristics of a vowel, i.e. it can be the core of a syllable, it can be stressed, etc. But that is not enough to be caractarised as a vowel.
Ved wrote:"l" and "n" can still be syllabic dialectally, but not in the standard language. For example, the old form of the word "wolf" is "vlk", which is also found in some dialects, while the standard form is now "vuk", in Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian.
Ved wrote:As you can well hear on Bugi's recordings (you really do sound like yourself on them, by the way )
Fenek wrote:Car wrote:AFAIK (but you'd better wait for someone else to confirm it) you insert a schwa before the "r".
According to the rules of pronunciation of standard Croatian there's no schwa. The word krk consists of three sounds: [k], syllabic [r] and [k]. There's no schwa or any other vowel inside. But some Croats do insert a schwa between the [k] and [r].
Fenek wrote:I wouldn't call that r a vowel either. It functions as a vowel, because it's syllabic, but phonetically it's just a trill.
Fenek wrote:Ved wrote:"l" and "n" can still be syllabic dialectally, but not in the standard language. For example, the old form of the word "wolf" is "vlk", which is also found in some dialects, while the standard form is now "vuk", in Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian.
As Bugi mentioned, syllabic l also appears in loanwords and foreign words. For example, Serbs tend to pronounce "Michael" with a syllabic l.
Bugi wrote:Fenek wrote:Car wrote:AFAIK (but you'd better wait for someone else to confirm it) you insert a schwa before the "r".
According to the rules of pronunciation of standard Croatian there's no schwa. The word krk consists of three sounds: [k], syllabic [r] and [k]. There's no schwa or any other vowel inside. But some Croats do insert a schwa between the [k] and [r].
That's interesting. I always thought that saying there is a schwa before the [r] (as well as that r is a vowel there) was a way to make it easier for learners of Serbo-croatian to adopt the fact that there are voweless words and syllables. Which, of course, isn't true. It's certainly interesting to know that there are native speakers who do that.
Car wrote:Not a schwa, less then that, I actually couldn't even describe what I hear there.
Strigo wrote:I know that r and l are vowels in Czech...
l is a vowel in Sanskrit too
Kubi wrote:Car wrote:Not a schwa, less then that, I actually couldn't even describe what I hear there.
Well, I'd say what you here there is the "syllabicity" of the "r".
We have even syllabic consonants in colloquial German: infinitives that lose the final "e". Like "gebn", "nehmn" aso... There the final "n" takes syllabic character
Fenek wrote:Car wrote:AFAIK (but you'd better wait for someone else to confirm it) you insert a schwa before the "r".
According to the rules of pronunciation of standard Croatian there's no schwa. The word krk consists of three sounds: [k], syllabic [r] and [k]. There's no schwa or any other vowel inside. But some Croats do insert a schwa between the [k] and [r].
Bugi does not. He clearly pronounces syllabic r's and no schwa in krk and hrvatski.
Fenek wrote:My idea to check if there's a vowel or not is to make a native speaker sing the syllable so that he would naturally prolong it. If his/her pronunciation is [k@rk], he/she would sing [k@@@@@@rk], and if his/her pronunciation is [kr=k], he/she would sing [kr=r=r=r=r=r=k]. But I never tested it in practice.
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