Croatian.

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Strigo
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Postby Strigo » 2005-08-15, 21:33

CoBB wrote:Can't L behave as a vowel too?


I know that r and l are vowels in Czech...
l is a vowel in Sanskrit too


but I don't get it
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Postby Malcolm » 2005-08-15, 21:35

Strigo wrote:
CoBB wrote:Can't L behave as a vowel too?


I know that r and l are vowels in Czech...
l is a vowel in Sanskrit too


but I don't get it

Really?
Can someone confirm that? I'(m curious to know more about it!
If anyone knew a little phonetics and could tell us more using IPA...

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Postby kibo » 2005-08-15, 21:58

No, I wouldn't call r a vowel. It has some some characteristics of a vowel, i.e. it can be the core of a syllable, it can be stressed, etc. But that is not enough to be caractarised as a vowel. ;)

CoBB wrote:Can't L behave as a vowel too?


Yes, both l and n can be 'syllabical' too, though mostly in loan words, toponyms, dialect words, etc.
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Postby Ved » 2005-08-16, 1:20

As you can well hear on Bugi's recordings (you really do sound like yourself on them, by the way ;-)), the Serbo-Croatian sound h is not really as hard as the Hebrew /x/, especially not so in Croatia. However, the closing is considerably narrower than in the English /h/, which makes for more friction. Still, it sounds nothing like the Castillian jota, the duch "g" or the aforementioned Hebrew phoneme.

"l" and "n" can still be syllabic dialectally, but not in the standard language. For example, the old form of the word "wolf" is "vlk", which is also found in some dialects, while the standard form is now "vuk", in Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian.
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Postby Fenek » 2005-08-16, 6:57

Car wrote:AFAIK (but you'd better wait for someone else to confirm it) you insert a schwa before the "r".


According to the rules of pronunciation of standard Croatian there's no schwa. The word krk consists of three sounds: [k], syllabic [r] and [k]. There's no schwa or any other vowel inside. But some Croats do insert a schwa between the [k] and [r].

Bugi does not. He clearly pronounces syllabic r's and no schwa in krk and hrvatski.
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Postby Fenek » 2005-08-16, 7:00

Bugi wrote:No, I wouldn't call r a vowel. It has some some characteristics of a vowel, i.e. it can be the core of a syllable, it can be stressed, etc. But that is not enough to be caractarised as a vowel. ;)


I wouldn't call that r a vowel either. It functions as a vowel, because it's syllabic, but phonetically it's just a trill.
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Postby Fenek » 2005-08-16, 7:07

Ved wrote:"l" and "n" can still be syllabic dialectally, but not in the standard language. For example, the old form of the word "wolf" is "vlk", which is also found in some dialects, while the standard form is now "vuk", in Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian.


As Bugi mentioned, syllabic l also appears in loanwords and foreign words. For example, Serbs tend to pronounce "Michael" with a syllabic l.
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Postby kibo » 2005-08-16, 10:31

Ved wrote:As you can well hear on Bugi's recordings (you really do sound like yourself on them, by the way ;-))


Hehe, thanks. :)

Fenek wrote:
Car wrote:AFAIK (but you'd better wait for someone else to confirm it) you insert a schwa before the "r".


According to the rules of pronunciation of standard Croatian there's no schwa. The word krk consists of three sounds: [k], syllabic [r] and [k]. There's no schwa or any other vowel inside. But some Croats do insert a schwa between the [k] and [r].


That's interesting. I always thought that saying there is a schwa before the [r] (as well as that r is a vowel there) was a way to make it easier for learners of Serbo-croatian to adopt the fact that there are voweless words and syllables. Which, of course, isn't true. It's certainly interesting to know that there are native speakers who do that. :)

Fenek wrote:I wouldn't call that r a vowel either. It functions as a vowel, because it's syllabic, but phonetically it's just a trill.


Exactly.

Fenek wrote:
Ved wrote:"l" and "n" can still be syllabic dialectally, but not in the standard language. For example, the old form of the word "wolf" is "vlk", which is also found in some dialects, while the standard form is now "vuk", in Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian.


As Bugi mentioned, syllabic l also appears in loanwords and foreign words. For example, Serbs tend to pronounce "Michael" with a syllabic l.


The only example I could think of without looking in my grammar book was the name of the Czech river Vltava. Now I see it also mentions the word 'bicikl' (bi-ci-kl :?:)
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Postby Car » 2005-08-16, 12:28

Bugi wrote:
Fenek wrote:
Car wrote:AFAIK (but you'd better wait for someone else to confirm it) you insert a schwa before the "r".


According to the rules of pronunciation of standard Croatian there's no schwa. The word krk consists of three sounds: [k], syllabic [r] and [k]. There's no schwa or any other vowel inside. But some Croats do insert a schwa between the [k] and [r].


That's interesting. I always thought that saying there is a schwa before the [r] (as well as that r is a vowel there) was a way to make it easier for learners of Serbo-croatian to adopt the fact that there are voweless words and syllables. Which, of course, isn't true. It's certainly interesting to know that there are native speakers who do that. :)


I see, I've seen so many sites saying there's a schwa in there, and to me, it does sound as if there's a vowel sound in them. Not a schwa, less then that, I actually couldn't even describe what I hear there.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Postby Kubi » 2005-08-16, 12:40

Car wrote:Not a schwa, less then that, I actually couldn't even describe what I hear there.

Well, I'd say what you here there is the "syllabicity" of the "r". 8)

We have even syllabic consonants in colloquial German: infinitives that lose the final "e". Like "gebn", "nehmn" aso... :wink: There the final "n" takes syllabic character :)
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Postby Fenek » 2005-08-16, 12:52

Strigo wrote:I know that r and l are vowels in Czech...
l is a vowel in Sanskrit too


In Sanskrit there are both syllabic r and l (like in Czech).
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Postby Car » 2005-08-16, 13:16

Kubi wrote:
Car wrote:Not a schwa, less then that, I actually couldn't even describe what I hear there.

Well, I'd say what you here there is the "syllabicity" of the "r". 8)


Yes, makes sense.

We have even syllabic consonants in colloquial German: infinitives that lose the final "e". Like "gebn", "nehmn" aso... :wink: There the final "n" takes syllabic character :)


That's exactly what it reminded me of. 8) Finally, I know what this "something" is called. :D
Please correct my mistakes!

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Postby Fenek » 2005-08-16, 15:08

My idea to check if there's a vowel or not is to make a native speaker sing the syllable so that he would naturally prolong it. If his/her pronunciation is [k@rk], he/she would sing [k@@@@@@rk], and if his/her pronunciation is [kr=k], he/she would sing [kr=r=r=r=r=r=k]. But I never tested it in practice.
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Postby Ved » 2005-08-17, 2:19

Fenek wrote:
Car wrote:AFAIK (but you'd better wait for someone else to confirm it) you insert a schwa before the "r".


According to the rules of pronunciation of standard Croatian there's no schwa. The word krk consists of three sounds: [k], syllabic [r] and [k]. There's no schwa or any other vowel inside. But some Croats do insert a schwa between the [k] and [r].

Bugi does not. He clearly pronounces syllabic r's and no schwa in krk and hrvatski.


Actually, nor all Croats do. It largely depends on the dialect. Speakers of standard Serbian, like Bugi, mostly have a clearly defined syllabic r. Btw, Bugi has a bit of a northern accent, and so do I.
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Postby Ved » 2005-08-17, 2:25

Fenek wrote:My idea to check if there's a vowel or not is to make a native speaker sing the syllable so that he would naturally prolong it. If his/her pronunciation is [k@rk], he/she would sing [k@@@@@@rk], and if his/her pronunciation is [kr=k], he/she would sing [kr=r=r=r=r=r=k]. But I never tested it in practice.


This is a great idea.

However, I believe that even most Serbian singers might be tempted to insert a little schwa there, as it is quite a feat to sing "krrrrrrrrrrrrk" quote-unuote properly and still make it sound so that it doesn't puncture the listener's eardrums. If you know what I mean.
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