[Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-08-16, 17:35

thepolishguy wrote:I was just wondering... how do you assign tones pitch accent to loanwords? There probably are some patterns that you follow.

Yes, I think there are indeed. This paper seems like a pretty interesting description of how pitch accent is assigned to loanwords from Latin, for example.

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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby TeneReef » 2014-08-16, 18:58

thepolishguy wrote:I was just wondering... how do you assign tones to loanwords? There probably are some patterns that you follow.


it depends on the word:

Ìtālija
kratko uzlazni, this has the same shape as kvinnorna in Swedish :mrgreen:

Bràzīl
kratko uzlazni, this has the same shape as kvinna, kvinnan, kvinnor in Swedish :mrgreen:

telèfōn
kratko uzlazni

ìlūzija
kratko uzlazni

televízija
dugouzlazni

source: http://hjp.novi-liber.hr
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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby thepolishguy » 2014-08-16, 19:20

Thanks! TeneReef, what do you mean by "the same shape"? I'm not sure about kvinnorna, kvinnan and kvinnor, but kvinna [kvînnâ] has a double falling accent in Central Standard Swedish, which I'd say sounds very different from the single short rising accent in BCS Brazil [brǎziːl] (actually it's more like [ˈbrǎzǐːl], since the rising accent spreads to the next syllable).
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby TeneReef » 2014-08-17, 22:07

Oh, I was gonna say: as kvinna in Southern Swedish, Dalecarlian and Gotlandish (kvínnà [but without forcing too much the 2nd syllable which is left as if it were a neutral tone in Mandarin),
as for kvinnorna as kvinnorna*, it can be heard all across Sweden,
(*_ = starting to go up, maximal pitch hight at o, and then neutral tone in a,
using ? and ! from English: [kvinnor]?[na]! but joined together)

[it's funny how, phonetically speaking, kvinna/kvinnan/kvinnor, kvinnorna, veta all have different phonetic realization of tone,
although phonologically it's all the same tone [the 2nd one], and I'm referring to differences within one particular dialect,
not across dialects]
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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby thepolishguy » 2014-08-18, 10:21

Thanks.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby basica » 2014-08-20, 10:16

Hello everyone, Saim pointed me in this direction from the member introduction forum :) To save you the hassle of looking there, I'll reintroduce myself here real quick :)

My parents are Serbian and I grew up speaking it at home until I was in kindergarten when they stopped speaking it as much as they wanted me to not fall behind at school. Unfortunately I lost most of my ability to speak and understand and for a long time have wanted to go learn it but I have had many set backs as even though I know bits and pieces it still poses a lot of difficulty for me to learn so I began learning Esperanto which the progress in that language greatly boosted my confidence as I can communicate in another language which was a really good experience for me :)

I currently own a Serbian grammar and a copy of Teach Yourself Serbian. I'm not really sure how to tackle Serbian as the other languages that I've spent time learning in the past (Esperanto and Japanese) had more online resources to help (plus they had really good decks for Anki).

Anyways, does anyone have any suggestions about what helped them? I'm thinking of digging back into the book and making my own deck from sentences and words from the book to help me memorize the vocabulary. Once again hello everyone and pleasure to meet you all :)
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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby thepolishguy » 2014-08-22, 10:35

I can't recommend you anything, because I've never really started learning BCS. I won't do it now, because it'd interfere with my (very weak) Russian. Anyway, I once had an opportunity to check out these:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosnian-Croatian-Serbian-Textbook-Exercises/dp/0299236544
http://www.amazon.com/Bosnian-Croatian-Serbian-Grammar-Sociolinguistic/dp/0299211940

The textbook looked very decent, I'm not sure about the grammar book. Maybe they (or at least one of them) are already available on the internet for free, like FSI Serbo-Croatian - probably worth checking out too. You can download it legally from here: http://fsi-language-courses.org/Content.php?page=Serbo-Croatian

More here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=67169
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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby basica » 2014-08-25, 13:56

Thank you for your help, thepolishguy! I will consider purchasing those books later on in the year. At the moment, I am casually thumbing through my serbian book and listening to serbian music in my car (when I'm not practicing my esperanto) so I am lightly stepping into it. I'll be diving into it at the end of the year I think though and that's when I'll probably by the book depending on how far my current one takes me :)

Thanks again!
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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby thepolishguy » 2014-08-25, 17:59

No problem :)
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby jrol » 2014-09-24, 9:32

What a nice forum! It looks inactive though, any active members on here particularly the Serbian language forum?

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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-10-29, 5:47

Eh, those of us learning any of Bosnian, Croatian, or Serbian (or Montenegrin :P) come here and post something once in a while, I guess.

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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby Covered » 2014-12-28, 3:32

zdravo vam

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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby TeneReef » 2014-12-28, 14:41

pozdrav i tebi, tudo em riba? :)
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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby Covered » 2014-12-29, 14:04

*cima :D da. i kod tebe? :D

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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby Daniel N. » 2015-01-20, 8:42

thepolishguy wrote:I was just wondering... how do you assign tones to loanwords? There probably are some patterns that you follow.


I just joined recently, so I might answer on this. First, about "you". The B/C/M/S language is far from monolith.

For instance, in local speech in my hometown (Zagreb) we don't assign tones at all — we don't have tones. Therefore we keep the original place of accent more or less (e.g. telefon).

In other parts of B/C/M/S territory, where there's Štokavian/Standard accent, there are two rules:

  • there can be only a rising accent, except on the first syllable
  • the accent cannot be on the last syllable

Therefore, if you apply those rules to telefon, you'll get the standard telèfōn — there's a rising accent, but not on the last syllable (the original place of stress also had a long vowel, and that's retained).

The story doesn't end here, since accent can move in various forms of one noun, according to various accent patterns. And it does move here, as soon you add any case ending (containing a vowel, but all endings contain a vowel) the stress shifts to its original place:

N telèfōn phone
DL na telefónu on the phone

This accent pattern is called "B" in specialized works. It's found in many loanwords, but also in some native words, e.g. gospòdār master (but that word could also be an ancient loanword from some Iranian language)
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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby Aethle » 2015-06-09, 13:06

I was wondering if anyone could help point me in the direction of some useful references pertaining to the Romanization of Serbian, especially as it was Romanized in the early 20th Century.

As it stands I can only really find modern Romanization rules but can't seem to find any consistent tables or references. Rules I find for that period seem to be already well understood by their intended contemporary audience, and can really only be discerned by comparing the modern Romanizations to those early 20th Century texts. There have also been one or two such tables that I saw somewhere in a book from the era, but they were incomplete references, and only went as far as was needed to Romanize the words and names that were referenced in them if I recall correctly.

And speaking of this Romanization policy, in a semi-related note, given the period nature of what I'm writing, as a matter of language from you who seem well versed in it, do you think it 'better' to use the period-appropriate spellings, or to use the modern methods when Romanizing? Is there a certain inexactitude in the previous methods that those fluent in Serbian, or any other Romanized language, may find confusing, insulting, or otherwise problematic that is solved by using modern methods, or is it simply a matter of time creating more elegant, simpler, solutions to what is admittedly an inexact science in the best of times in my opinion?

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Re: [Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Postby Daniel N. » 2016-05-29, 22:03

Aethle wrote:I was wondering if anyone could help point me in the direction of some useful references pertaining to the Romanization of Serbian, especially as it was Romanized in the early 20th Century.

As it stands I can only really find modern Romanization rules but can't seem to find any consistent tables or references. Rules I find for that period seem to be already well understood by their intended contemporary audience, and can really only be discerned by comparing the modern Romanizations to those early 20th Century texts. There have also been one or two such tables that I saw somewhere in a book from the era, but they were incomplete references, and only went as far as was needed to Romanize the words and names that were referenced in them if I recall correctly.


I find your question a bit confusing. The official grammars and orthography of Serbo-Croatian has both Latin and Cyrillic from the late 19th century. Latin prevailed in Croatia, Cyrillic prevailed in Serbia, but later Latin started to be used in Serbia more and more.

Croatian Latin was designed in a way to be a match for Serbian Cyrillic. The last change was when Đuro Daničić introduced the letter <đ> in Croatian Latin, to be a match for the Serbian Cyrillic <ђ>. That was at the end of the 19th century.

In the 20th century there were more harmonization of spellings. After 1990. there were some divergence of spellings, but they are still almost identical.
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