Croatian dialects

[Fenek]

Tominho
You speak Kajkavian, don't you? I'm interested in Kajkavian dialects, because they seem to be very close to Slovene

[tominho is back]

I cannot speak Kajkavian but I understand it.
When I speak Croatian I use Stokavian with Kajkavian elements (Zagreb aka capital accent)

it is stokavian pronunciation, but kajkavian (and cakavian) stress positions.

I say iTAlija, braZIL, dalMACija, orMAR

and not ITalija, BRazil, DALmacija, ORmar



Western and Northern Croatian sound better to me.

ops
Kajkavian can differ markedly according to the region.

MILK can be said mleke (with first e being open é, or closed ê)
or mlieke/mlijeke



I don't like is said

ne VOlim in Zagreb, Kaikavian region and Istra/Primorje(Rijeka/Fiume)

the rest of the country says NE volim

------------


In Zagreb, one says kaj? ou kaje? ou kae?
for WHAT

sta is secondly used



sto is formal and it is used mainly on radio/tv and by some burróides


KADE means WHERE and it is used in some regions.


It has nothing to do with Brazilian expression CADÊ meaning WHERE IS?


or it has

[Fenek]

Thanks, that was interesting!

I say iTAlija, braZIL, dalMACija, orMAR

These stress positions resemble Slovene... and, as I can see, the final syllable can be stressed.

In Zagreb, one says kaj? ou kaje? ou kae?
for WHAT

Yeah, I have some records of Croatian bands and I noticed that in lyrics of a band from Zagreb there is "kaj".

I found another interesting thing in a song of a band from Pula. When they sing words like "njegov", "njegove", "zaboravljam", their "v" sounds much more like English "w" than like English "v". This also resembles Slovene. Can anyone tell me more about this phonological phenomenon?

[tominho is back]

well


v is pronounced like English or Brazilian Portuguese v

but before U w is used :


vuk [wuk] wolf (by some, not by all the people)

don't know why

if you like croatian music try songs by a band called KARMA

(very popular in Czeck Republic )

[Fenek]

I read that there was no syllabic r sound in Kajkavian. So I guess the letter "r" in words such as "trg", "prst" would be pronounced as a combination of a short vowel and non-syllabic r (as in Slovene). Does anybody know something about this?

[Psi-Lord]

Fenek, are you a dialect-researching bot? No matter which language, it seems you're always interested when there are dialects involved.

[ekalin]

I read that there was no syllabic r sound in Kajkavian. So I guess the letter "r" in words such as "trg", "prst" would be pronounced as a combination of a short vowel and non-syllabic r (as in Slovene). Does anybody know something about this?

*Wonders how you can pronounce a syllabic r that is not a schwa followed by an r...*

[Fenek]

*Wonders how you can pronounce a syllabic r that is not a schwa followed by an r...*

A schwa followed by an r is just a schwa followed by an r It's not r that is syllabic, it's schwa. This is how Slovenians pronounce "r" in words such as "trg" or "prst".

Syllabic r is something different. It existed in Proto-Slavic and it still exists in some Slavic languages (Czech, Slovak, Serbocroatian, Macedonian). Native speakers of languages which don't have syllabic r in their phonetic set usually hear syllabic r as an r preceded by a short vowel, but it's just a result of unconscious approximation to the closest known sound. In fact, syllabic r is pronounced the same way as non-syllabic r, except that it forms a syllable. If you listen very carefully to Slovak soundclips, you'll probably hear it. Do you want me to upload some soundclips?

[Fenek]

I don't need to upload soundclips, I've found some at http://www.slovak.com

http://www.slovak.com/language/alphabet/q_-_s/q_-_s.html listen to "vŕba"
http://www.slovak.com/language/calendar/days/days.html listen to "štvrtok"

[Luís]

I actually don't notice any vowel sound there. It seems like a regular (but very rolled r), but prolonged for a while. Still, quite a weird sound to my ears...

[ekalin]

Well, to me it does sound like a vowel followed by an r. A very short and quite undefined vowel, but I could swear I hear one... It might not be exactly the schwa, in fact it sounds more like the turned a. In štvrtok this vowel is more present, or so I hear. Of course, it could be due to this "closest approximation".

I guess it would be nice to hear the same word pronounced in the vocallic r way and in the slovenian way...

[Fenek]

Well, to me it does sound like a vowel followed by an r.

I don't hear any vowel. Probably because I know that there should be no vowel and maybe because I had a lot of contact with Slovak and Slovene. But to all "normal" Poles Slovak syllabic r sounds like yr (y is one of Polish vowels).
On the other hand, I know that Slovaks and Serbs don't hear any difference between syllabic and non-syllabic r (so it's really hard to explain to them what syllabic r is).

I guess it would be nice to hear the same word pronounced in the vocallic r way and in the slovenian way...

This is a good idea!
I'll try to find some similar soundclips in Slovak and Slovene...

[Fenek]

Slovenian "prvi", "prva" http://www.ff.uni-lj.si/sft/common.htm#HOW
Slovak "prvý", "prvá" http://www.slovak.com/language/numbers/0_-_14/0_-_14.html

[Luís]

The difference seems pretty obvious to me, after hearing it.
But still, one thing is to hear, another is to pronounce it, and that must surely be a challenge

[ekalin]

Slovenian "prvi", "prva" http://www.ff.uni-lj.si/sft/common.htm#HOW
Slovak "prvý", "prvá" http://www.slovak.com/language/numbers/0_-_14/0_-_14.html

Well, the Slovenian schwa + r is pretty clear.

As for the Slovak, it is clearly different. The first times I heard it, it still sounded like the Slovenian, but with the vowel shorter and less defined. But in later hearins, it started sounding pr@va instead of the previous p@rva, but in pr@va with this @ much closer to a /a/ than a real /@/.

Now I sometime hear one way, sometimes the other. I guess this indefinition shows that there should be no vowel there. But I still think there is an introder sound there — unintensional, of course. Probably cause when shifting the tongue and other organs from one consonant to the others — after all, this change is not immediate, taking a few milliseconds, and the air flow does not stop during that.

[jururu]

I read that there was no syllabic r sound in Kajkavian. So I guess the letter "r" in words such as "trg", "prst" would be pronounced as a combination of a short vowel and non-syllabic r (as in Slovene). Does anybody know something about this?

*Wonders how you can pronounce a syllabic r that is not a schwa followed by an r...*

hurt in US pronunciation

[jururu]

Well, Croatian grammars do consider R a vowel

but phoneticians consider it a sequence of schwa+R


European Portuguese (from Lisbon) also has this ''syllabic R''


vrdad for verdade THE TRUTH - European Portuguese

vrdati (v@rdati) RUN AROUND - Croatian

it is the same vrd sound

[jururu]

CROATIAN SYLLABIC R IS DISCUSSED HERE:



http://www.geocities.com/peterluts/croc.jpg

[jururu]

http://www.geocities.com/peterluts/crod.jpg

[Luís]

vrdad for verdade THE TRUTH - European Portuguese

Hmm... now that you mention it... when I pronounce the "vrd" without the schwa (because both ways are perfectly acceptable), the 'r' does sound kinda different