Identifying a Dutch dialect

[Prosper_Youplaboum]

Hello

Could someone help me please?
I would like to know if in the following videos, that charming young woman speaks in a dialect or in standard Dutch, and if she speaks a dialect, what dialect it is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyb4AQcw ... ure=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v__rV5-N ... ure=relmfu

thanks a lot

[Hoogstwaarschijnlijk]

Volgens Wikipedia komt ze uit Hoensbroek, dus ze spreekt met een Limburgs accent. Maar echt dialect spreekt ze (op dit filmpje) niet.

[Prosper_Youplaboum]

Thanks. What is Limburgian in her accent when speaking standard Dutch?

[Reveuse]

She doesn't speak a dialect here, but she has an accent from the south of the Netherlands. It's not that clear however, there are people from Limburg who have a much bigger accent.

[Prosper_Youplaboum]

Thanks, and what sounds "southern" in her accent?

[Weerwolf]

Thanks, and what sounds "southern" in her accent?

Not being a native speaker myself, but to me it is her way of pronouncing the letters 'g' and 'ch', the so-called 'zachte g' (soft g). By the way, I quite dig her accent.

[Ikbent]

I am Dutch, and indeed, what mainly stands out is the soft g. Also, I notice how she colors the vowels differently than in the "standard" pronounciation.

For instance, in:
"Ik vind dat deze plaat onze meest volwassen plaat ooit is"
The "oo" in "ooit" almost becomes an "oe", like in "boek".

Although I must say she pronounces the language fine in my ears: I can here she's from the south but I would just say she has a minor local accent, nothing more.

Regards,
Robert

[Prosper_Youplaboum]

Thanks, I didn't even know there were dialects with such pronunciations for g and ch in Dutch. Looks like most learning books only mention the hard pronunciations. It's a pity.

Is it southern too to pronounce the r's like [ʀ]?

[Ikbent]

Indeed.
<guess mode>
It's probably French influence.
</guess mode>

And so, in my ears, in southern dutch the R is pronounced as something that comes close to a normal (hard) g.

Regards,
Robert

[Prosper_Youplaboum]

In French the most common r isn't an uvular trill like that, but rather an uvular fricative [ʁ]. That singer's r's sound foreign to me (but nice)

[Hoogstwaarschijnlijk]

I really don't know why I answered this in Dutch, do you even speak Dutch?

Thanks, I didn't even know there were dialects with such pronunciations for g and ch in Dutch. Looks like most learning books only mention the hard pronunciations. It's a pity.

Is it southern too to pronounce the r's like [ʀ]?

As you seem to be from Belgium, this musn't surprise you too much: in Flandern they pronounce their g's and ch's just like in the south of the Netherlands. It's only in Holland and the north of the Netherlands that they have a very rough, hard (ugly ) g. But indeed, that's the one that's mostly been focused on in learning books and also the one you will hear most on the television (well, not Flemish television obviously).

[Moritz]

In French the most common r isn't an uvular trill like that, but rather an uvular fricative [ʁ]. That singer's r's sound foreign to me (but nice)

In French there is much oscillation with the R-pronunciation, hence the confusion; [ʁ] is very common, but it also oscillate with a trill, especially for emphasis.. more often, before consonants, pauses and sometimes in unstressed syllables it becomes more of an "uvular approximant", which obviously sounds softer.. in Parisian pronunciation, and also the one you can easily find in the medias, is often more of a pharyngeal sound (think of the Danish R; this one tend to happens in every context)..
The Flemish R of Tussentaal (not the official one which is a slightly uvularised alveolar flap) oscillates between [ʀ] (uvular trill) and its "fricative" counterpart, in every context

[PiotrR]

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO

[Moritz]

The Flemish R of Tussentaal (not the official one which is a slightly uvularised alveolar flap) oscillates between [ʀ] (uvular trill) and its "fricative" counterpart, in every context.

Sorry, what you wrote is just too much of a generalization.

Verhoeven (2005) writes that:
"The phonological system of Belgian Dutch has free variation between an alveolar and uvular trill. The alveolar trill is most frequent and geographically most widely distributed. The uvular trill is regionally confined to the cities of Ghent and Brussels and the province of Limburg, but estimates suggest that it is gaining fast in popularity (Van Reenen 1994)."

Of course there is much oscillation for every speaker), but for those who use an uvular R in "official contexts", an uvular trill is often heard, always oscillating with an uvular fricative ; this goes against the practive of Poldernederlands of having an approximant R (which can even be vocalised in a sort of schwa-like sound sometimes) before consonants and at the end of a word
I didn't want to say that the alveolar flap does not exist anymore (still slightly uvularised and therefore different from an Italian R, which is in many contexts also trilled; not so in the Flanders) ; I'm not talking about regional accents, but the accents heard by "official" contexts by people who do not have a "localised Flemish accent" ; regional differences are much more varied

[PiotrR]

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO

[Moritz]

Sorry, I'm either blind or this completely contradicts what you wrote before:

Verhoeven, on the other hand, says it's neither, because both alveolar and uvular /r/ are standard.

Do you have an access to a reliable source that would contradict that?

I never said that it is dialectal, but it is substandard (mediatic practice influenced by TV; the so called "Tussentaal"); it has nothing to do with dialects and has only less to do with "standard Flemish".. the difference between "old style Flemish standard" and "Tussentaal" (if we stay away from the lexical and grammatical differences) is not only in the R pronunciation (which in the "standard" is always alveolar, although slightly uvularised), but also in vowels (for example ee, oo are slightly more diphthongised, although not reaching the "extreme" Poldernederlands diphthongisations), in intonation and some other consonant realisations..
Luciano Canepari did a great job in describing these nuances in his latest book "Dutch PronunciationS"

[PiotrR]

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO

[Plaas]

In some situations, /eː øː oː/ are slightly diphtongized, for example in words like zee (auslaut), but generally spoken they are pure monophtongs indeed, at least in standard and substandard Flemish.

In Standard Dutch, both alveolar and uvular r are accepted, the former being the most standard, formal variant. In Flanders, the alveolar r is the most common, in dialects, in sub-standard speech (Tussentaal), in formal Standard Dutch - the uvular r is gaining popularity, but sill not as accepted as the alveolar. The alveolar approximant, as heard in some variants of northern Dutch, is uncommon in Flanders.

[PiotrR]

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO

[Plaas]

Even in English loanwords it is not so common (they are generally pronounced as if they were Dutch or French words, thus "fan" with [ɑ], "gel" like [ʒɛl]). It is actually only used in jokes about Dutchmen.