french liaison

[katelyn3]

In terms of french linguistics I am trying to figure out some liaison
Can someone help?
For example
why is there liaison between petits amis but not between amis americains ?

[JackFrost]

You can make the liaison between "les amis américains" (plural noun + adjective), but it's optional (read: formal). However, "le petit ami" (adjective + noun) and "les petits amis" (adjective + plural noun), the liaison is obligatory, and "l'étudiant américain" (singular noun + adjective), the liaison is forbidden. Let's make a quick summary:

adjective + singular noun > obligatory
adjective + plural noun > obligatory
singular noun + adjective > forbidden
plural noun + adjective > optional

What is clear is that it is obligatory for any adjective in front of the noun, whether singular or plural. Then you can forget about it when it comes to any adjective after the noun, singular or plural, and you'd be still speaking Standard French just like the natives.

Why? I can't say... I've never studied the nature and development of the liaison in French linguistics. Just knowing when it's optional or obligatory or forbidden. Maybe I can say that it's an important feature of French since it could be the only way telling if the term is in the singular or plural form (ex.: "prochain arrêt" vs "prochains arrêts").

I hope it's clearer now. Oh, and the Wiki has a nice detailed article about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liaison_%28French%29

[katelyn3]

thank you I will take a look
can you explain why there is liaison between ils avaient but not liaison between peu d'hommes ont mange ( couldn't do the accent on the e sorry)

[katelyn3]

or why is there no liaison between partez immediatement but there is liaison between tres intelligent.

I'm confused.
Help?

[JackFrost]

can you explain why there is liaison between ils avaient but not liaison between peu d'hommes ont mange

(I can understand you without the accent marks, so it's fine.)

"Ils" is a subject pronoun whereas "peu d'hommes" isn't. The liaison between the pronouns and verbs is obligatory, but forbidden between the nouns acting as subjects and the verbs.

or why is there no liaison between partez immediatement but there is liaison between tres intelligent.

It has to do with grammatical groups. For example, "les bons amis américains" form one single group since the words modify each other to make a precise meaning (the + good + American + friends). Same for "ils arrivent" and "ils ont mangé". It's hard for me to explain this one, so I'm trying. haha So, "partez immédiatement", there is generally no liaison between the verbs and adverbs, but "très intelligent" form as an adjectival group, so there's a liaison.

Just a few words to comfort you, the liaison is a complicated thing since it varies somewhat between speakers and the rules are everywhere, so do not worry about it too much if you're a beginner or intermediate learner. Over time if you're that interested in French, you'll get the general idea of it. It's pretty much like for French speakers to get a grasp of the English intonation and stress patterns (advanced stuff, I should add).

Again, I'm trying my best since it's a tricky aspect of French grammar/phonology that can confuse the francophones too.

[katelyn3]

no you are being very helpful
so never liaison between adverb and verb?
the groups I understand..this makes sense...having some linguistics in my background but in english
I guess it would be like a noun group or something?

[katelyn3]

is there somewhere to find more info
I have read the wilkipedia info

[JackFrost]

Hmmm, I have a document from French linguistics that summarizes the élision, liaison, enchaînement, and euphonie with plenty of examples. I'll attach it to this post, so I hope you'll find it useful as a quick reference whenever you're not sure. It's all in French, so if you have any trouble understanding it, let me know and I'll still be happy to help you!

Liaison Élision.pdf

so never liaison between adverb and verb?

Pretty much so as far as I am aware!

I guess it would be like a noun group or something?

Yes, "les bons amis américains" would be a noun group with a bunch of adjectives. You're getting it.

[katelyn3]

that helps.
I have a hard time figuring out what parts of sentences are what.
I am taking a general interest course...(not graded I'm an adult) and trying to figure this out.
So I am learning about SN and SV etc...the groups.
Do you or anyone else know about trees...arbres syntagmatiques?
I have questions on this sentence.
L'arbitraire du signe est un concept important de la linguistique.
In this sentence L'arbitraire du signe would be the SN? yes no?
What would L'arbitraire be? the adjectif? It's a confusing sentence to me.

I am so happy to have found this forum as I am hoping to take more advanced courses on this.

[katelyn3]

could L'arbitraire be the noun? and the du signe a preposition?

[linguoboy]

could L'arbitraire be the noun? and the du signe a preposition?

Du is the preposition (or, rather, preposition-cum-article). Du signe is a prepositional phrase modifying the head noun arbitraire.

[katelyn3]

Hi Linguoboy.
Thank you
I appreciate the clarification!
This stuff can be confusing but good for the brain

[katelyn3]

so arbitraire is the N and the tete of the Sn and du signe is the SP?
Would you say they can't be separated as du signe is the SP that modifies the SN?

[linguoboy]

Would you say they can't be separated as du signe is the SP that modifies the SN?

Of course they can be separated, e.g. "l'arbitraire complet du signe".

[katelyn3]

hmmm.I understand what you are saying somewhat. If arbitraire is the noun we don't need du signe?
But as a group wouldn't it be l'arbitraire du signe what makes up the SN with du signe being an SP?

[katelyn3]

so this group if doing an arbre would be SN
and then under SN...det N SP.

I'm not doing a tree just trying to understand

[JackFrost]

and then under SN...det N SP.

It's been a while since I have to use terms like "SN", "det", etc., but I believe you are correct.

If we have to translate it, it would be "the arbitrariness of the sign", which is a word-to-word translation from the French original. So, yes, you can drop "of the sign/du signe".

While I think about it, there is a very good textbook that uses syntax groups to explain the French grammar, so it's possible you may find it in a library in your city (no idea how widely available are the French resources in the heart of SE Ontario). It's called "Grammaire pédagogique du français d'aujourd'hui". Take a look if you ever run across it.

[katelyn3]

thanks I will look for that