A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

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azhong
Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby azhong » 2012-11-05, 11:22

Q1: Is there any reason or logic in French that the "ou" in "pouvoir" turns to be "eu" in "peux" and "peut", instead of just *poux and *pout? (I know this might be a silly question, but I'd like to know if there happens to be any halpful information for my French learning.)

Q2: Do the "eu" in "peux" and "ui" in "puis-je" both still pronounce the same as the "ou" in "pouwoir"?

Q3: And I guess the reason that "je peux" varies to be "puis-je" is just for a easier pronunciation?

)I can draw a sheep. I cannot draw a sheep. Can I draw a sheep? Yes, I can. No, I can not.

Je peux dessiner un mouton.
Je ne peux pas dessiner un mouton.
Puis-je dessiner un mouton?
Oui, je le peux.
?Non, je ne peux pas.
(Q4: Google translator told me so. Isn't a "le" needed in a negative answer?)

) I can draw. I draw a picture about a sheep.
Je peux dessiner. Je dessine un dessin d'un mouton.

) You can draw. You draw another picture about a book. You have a picture.
Tu peux dessiner. Tu dessines un autre dessin d'un livre. Tu as un dessin.

) He can also draw. He draws the third picture about a mechanic. He also has a picture.
Il peut aussi dessiner. Il dessine le troisième dessin d'un mécanicien. Il a aussi un dessin.

) We have three pictures.
Nous avons trois dessins.

Thank you in advance for your responses or corrections.

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Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby modus.irrealis » 2012-11-05, 12:09

azhong wrote:Q1: Is there any reason or logic in French that the "ou" in "pouvoir" turns to be "eu" in "peux" and "peut", instead of just *poux and *pout? (I know this might be a silly question, but I'd like to know if there happens to be any halpful information for my French learning.)

The basic reason has to do with stress. Note that in the forms peux, peut, peuvent, the -eu- vowel is stressed, but in pouvoir, pouvons, pouvez, the -ou- vowel is unstressed. You see a similar pattern in the verb vouloir (je veux), or mourir (je meurs), and others.

Q2: Do the "eu" in "peux" and "ui" in "puis-je" both still pronounce the same as the "ou" in "pouwoir"?

No, they are pronounced differently.

Q3: And I guess the reason that "je peux" varies to be "puis-je" is just for a easier pronunciation?

Maybe, but you still say "veux-je", so I'm not sure how much easier it is. Note, though, that you might come across "puis" used even when it's not "puis-je". For example I think "si je puis ..." is still fairly common.

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Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby Emandir » 2012-11-05, 13:02

modus.irrealis wrote:
Q3: And I guess the reason that "je peux" varies to be "puis-je" is just for a easier pronunciation?

Maybe, but you still say "veux-je", so I'm not sure how much easier it is. Note, though, that you might come across "puis" used even when it's not "puis-je". For example I think "si je puis ..." is still fairly common.
"pui-" is another root for "pouvoir" found in the subjunctive.
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azhong

Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby azhong » 2012-11-07, 13:08

1. Writing practice.
(I have checked and corrected my sentences in advance with google translator. Still, any comments are welcome.)
Je suis mécanicien. J'ai un enfant. Il a six ans. Il peut dessiner un mouton. Mais je ne peux pas dessiner un mouton. Peux-tu dessiner un mouton?

2. A question please: the pronunciation difference between
the "ou" in "pouvoir" and
the "eu" in "peux" and "peut".
I can not distinguish any nuances through the audio google translator. How are "ou" and "eu" often pronounced? Or can someone recommend any on-line audio resources for basic French?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

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Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby Saaropean » 2012-11-07, 14:36

OU is pronounced [u], EU is pronounced [ø]. I recommend you familiarize yourself with the logic of the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA, in French API). Once you know how it works, you'll be able to pronounce just about anything...

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Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby JackFrost » 2012-11-07, 19:39

About your writing practice (#1), it's perfectly grammatical and natural.

Saaropean wrote:EU is pronounced [ø]

An extra note for azhong: or [œ]. [ø] is a closed version of [œ] like "heureux" [œʀø] and "heureuse" [œʀøz]. [u] in "pouvoir" is rather distinct to my ears since it's pronounced at the back of the mouth opposed to the middle for "eu". :wink:
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Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby Emandir » 2012-11-08, 0:00

JackFrost wrote:like "heureux" [œʀø] and "heureuse" [œʀøz].
Not in France. We pronounce it [øʁø]
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Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby JackFrost » 2012-11-08, 4:27

Whoops, I messed up with the IPA transcription. My bad.
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azhong

Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby azhong » 2012-11-11, 8:48

My sentence-making practices. Thanks in advance for your comments.

Puis-je le comprendre?
Oui, je peux./ Non, je ne peux pas.
Je peux comprendre qu'il ne peut pas dessin un garçon.
Ce garçon qu'a un livre est mécanicien sérieux, n'est-ce pas?
Peut ce garçon dessin un mouton?

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Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby modus.irrealis » 2012-11-11, 11:41

azhong wrote:My sentence-making practices. Thanks in advance for your comments.

Puis-je le comprendre?
Oui, je peux./ Non, je ne peux pas.
Je peux comprendre qu'il ne peut pas dessiner un garçon.
Ce garçon qui a un livre est mécanicien sérieux, n'est-ce pas?
Ce garçon peut-il dessiner un mouton?

Only pronouns can be inverted in questions like this, not nouns. WIth nouns you need to introduce an extra pronoun.

Let me also repeat a previous question of yours, because I'm also interested in knowing when it's more natural to use "je (ne) peux (pas)" and when "je (ne) le peux (pas)".
azhong wrote:Oui, je le peux.
?Non, je ne peux pas. (Q4: Google translator told me so. Isn't a "le" needed in a negative answer?)

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Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby Emandir » 2012-11-14, 14:03

modus.irrealis wrote:
azhong wrote:My sentence-making practices. Thanks in advance for your comments.

Puis-je le comprendre?
Oui, je peux./ Non, je ne peux pas.
Je peux comprendre qu'il ne peut pas dessiner un garçon.
Ce garçon qui a un livre est un mécanicien sérieux, n'est-ce pas?
Ce garçon peut-il dessiner un mouton?


Let me also repeat a previous question of yours, because I'm also interested in knowing when it's more natural to use "je (ne) peux (pas)" and when "je (ne) le peux (pas)".
azhong wrote:Oui, je le peux.
?Non, je ne peux pas. (Q4: Google translator told me so. Isn't a "le" needed in a negative answer?)
"Je ne le peux pas" is very formal, almost literary. Le refers here to the verb, not to the verb complement:
    Peux-tu venir ? Non, je ne le peux pas. / Je ne peux pas venir.
    Peux-tu voir l'enfant ? / Peux tu le voir ? Non, je ne le peux pas . / Non, je ne peux pas le voir.
Today, anyway, we'd rather say : Je [ne] peux pas.
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azhong

Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby azhong » 2012-11-14, 14:17

My thanks, first of all.
Emandir wrote:Ce garçon qui a un livre est un mécanicien sérieux, n'est-ce pas?

To make sure, I was told there is no need to have the indefinite article ("a/an") when mentioning about someone's occupation?

I am a mechanic.
Je suis mécanicien.

We are mechanics.
Nous sommes des mécaniciens.

But
I am a serious mechanic.
will becomes
Je suis un mécanicien sérieux.
this way?

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Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby Emandir » 2012-11-14, 16:29

azhong wrote:My thanks, first of all.
Emandir wrote:Ce garçon qui a un livre est un mécanicien sérieux, n'est-ce pas?

To make sure, I was told there is no need to have the indefinite article ("a/an") when mentioning about someone's occupation?

I am a mechanic.
Je suis mécanicien.

We are mechanics.
Nous sommes des mécaniciens.

But
I am a serious mechanic.
will becomes
Je suis un mécanicien sérieux.
this way?
Yes. You can even say "Nous sommes mécaniciens."
In this case, "mécanicien" works more like an adjective than a substantive.
Language is the best way men have found to misunderstand each other. Lycodoxos

@Emandir

azhong

Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby azhong » 2012-11-16, 12:14

My sentence-writing practices. Thanks in advance for helping check.

Nous sommes des mécaniciens. Nous avons trois enfants. Nous avons aussi un mouton.
Vous êtes des enfants. Vous avez des dessins.
Ils sont des grande personnes. Ils ont des livres.

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Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby Emandir » 2012-11-16, 14:39

azhong wrote:My sentence-writing practices. Thanks in advance for helping check.

Nous sommes des mécaniciens. Nous avons trois enfants. Nous avons aussi un mouton.
Vous êtes des enfants. Vous avez des dessins.
Ils sont des grande personnes. Ils ont des livres.
10/10 !
Just know that one would rather say "ce sont de(s) grandes personnes" or "ils sont grands/adultes" but your sentence is not incorrect.
Language is the best way men have found to misunderstand each other. Lycodoxos

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azhong

Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby azhong » 2012-11-19, 14:09

A question at first, asking two words:

Q: on/ ?/ ?/ soi: one.NOM/.AKK/.DAT/.Strssed A,D

Then my sentence-making practices. My thanks in advance for your help.

Elles ont une excuse. Cette excuse est sérieuse. Ils ont une autre excuse(.F). Mais elle n'est pas sérieuse.
Tu peux comprendre aussi qu'il a foim et froid, n'est-ce pas?
Où puis-je habiter?
(Where can I live?)
Je ne peux pas consoler le, est-ce? (I can not comfort/console him, can I?)
Le garçon peut-il consoler le? (Can the boy comfort him?)

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Re: A French beginner reading <The Little Prince>

Postby JackFrost » 2012-11-19, 21:54

Q: on/ ?/ ?/ soi: one.NOM/.AKK/.DAT/.Strssed A,D

There isn't any except the reflexive "se".

Elles ont une excuse. Cette excuse est sérieuse. Ils ont une autre excuse(.F). Mais elle n'est pas sérieuse.

Good.

Tu peux comprendre aussi qu'il a foim et froid, n'est-ce pas?

faim*

Où puis-je habiter? (Where can I live?)

Good.

Je ne peux pas consoler le, est-ce? (I can not comfort/console him, can I?)

le consoler, n'est-ce pas*

"Est-ce" is not a typical question tag in French.

Le garçon peut-il consoler le? (Can the boy comfort him?)

le consoler*

Generally, the only time the object pronouns can come after the verbs is when you use the positive imperative construction such as "console-le!" (BUT, "ne le console pas!" > negative imperative).
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