księżyc - עברית

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księżyc - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-07-01, 15:29

As those of you reading my TAC thread know, I'm taking a class on Biblical Hebrew this summer. As I'm sure I'll have questions after my class (we're not making it all the way through our textbook), and I want to do some Modern Hebrew after I get a good grasp of Biblical, I figured I'd start a thread here.

At the current moment, I figured I'd start reading a book of the Bible outside of class.
Any recommendations on an easy part/book of the Hebrew scriptures? I've started reading Kings 1 (chosen at random really).

Grammar-wise we've gone through just about everything except the verbs, which we just started.
Last edited by księżycowy on 2013-11-24, 17:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby Golv » 2013-07-02, 16:33

Personally, I'd just go for any of the narrative parts of the bible and avoid the rest - Kings I sounds like a good choice.

Any suggestion I could give beyond that would probably be subject to my bias as a Modern Hebrew speaker, which you aren't.

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-07-02, 17:22

Not yet anyway. :wink:

And that's what I figured. Narrative in my mind definitely seemed better then any psalms or proverbs, or even any of the more poetic books.

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-09-18, 1:27

So, on another forum (Parleremo), I was originally just going to post readings with translations and things of interest pointed out, but they've kind of formed into lessons. At any rate, I thought it might be of interest to some of you, so here is a link:
http://www.parleremo.org/forum/index.php?topic=747.0

I could especially use some constructive criticism and guidance from any natives that know Biblical Hebrew well, if you don't mind. I'm just a beginning student after all. :)

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-09-27, 14:12

Time to begin my adventure with Modern Hebrew! :D

As my textbook, Modern Hebrew For Beginners: A Multimedia Program by Raizen, doesn't have any answer key, I'll be posting my answers to the exercises here in. I'll also post any questions or issues I have.

Lesson Aleph Exercises:
1.
שרה סטודנטית.
דוויד סטודנט.
דוויד ורותם סטודנטים.
מרב ושרה סטודנטיות.
שרה באניברסיטה.
דוויד באניברסיטה.
שרה ודוויד באוניברסיטה.
רותם מדבר עברית.
מרב מדברית עברית.
אברהם ושרה מדברים עברית.
שרה ומרב מדברות עברית.


That's enough of those type of sentences. Now on to the "dialogs."

2.
א.
שלום! שמות דני.
נעים מאוד.
ב.
בקר טוב, שרה! מה נשמע?
טוב, תודה!
ג.
תודה, רבקה!
בבקשה.
ד.
סליחה! מה שמך?
שמות יצחק, ומה שמך?
שמות רחל.
ה.
מה שמו? שמו רון.
ו.
יעל פרופסורית באוניברסיטה.
ז.
מרב סטודנטית ואוניברסיטה.
ח.
שר ודני סטודנטים, ועודד מורה.
ט.
דוויד ויעקוב מדברים עברית, ושרה מדברת עברית.
י.
יעל ועודד מדברים טלפון.


I had to look up quite a few of the names to check their gender. But other then that, I don't foresee any major problems with what I've done above.
Oh, and the textbook had me use the name Danny, which I made into דני, I'm hoping that's at least close enough. :P

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-09-28, 3:24

One question I do have at this point is regarding pronunciation. My textbook uses pointed Hebrew to teach you words and their pronunciation. In the explanation of the alphabet and pronunciation the author explains that the qamets indicates the 'a' vowel and qamets hatuf indicates the 'o' vowel.

All fine and good, but how does one tell them apart, as they are the same symbol. Is it that same as I learned in Biblical Hebrew? It's the a vowel in open syllables or closed accented syllables, otherwise it's the o vowel?

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby Babelfish » 2013-10-04, 13:17

I actually never heard of this rule :P But I think the pronunciation of vowels should be the same in Biblical and Modern Hebrew, so it might well be correct! I just don't know enough examples of words with qamatz pronounced -o-, it's relatively rare.

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-10-04, 13:20

Makes sense, I suppose. I'll stick with it until I'm proven wrong. :P

Are people taught pronunciation with vowel points in Israel? Just curious.

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby Babelfish » 2013-10-04, 13:52

Children's books are fully vocalized, until we learn to read without the vowel marks. Friends of mine have mentioned that they had also studied in school how to vocalize - i.e. which vowel marks to use, since we don't distinguish vowel length anymore - but I personally hadn't :(

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-10-04, 19:36

Interesting. That's just about what I expected to hear. Thanks! :D

It's especially interesting there are classes on what vowel points to use to point texts!

Also, I had a question on a line from the book of Joshua. I'll have to find the line again though.

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-10-06, 22:00

Joshua 2:1 is the verse!
The part that is troubling me is:
וַיִּשְׁלַח יְהוֹשֻׁעַ-בִּן-נוּן מִן-הַשִּׁטִּים שְׁנַיִם-אֲנָשִׁים מְרַגְּלִים, חֶרֶשׁ לֵאמֹר

It seems a little ambiguous to me whom is from Shittim. Is it Joshua or the two he sent?
(Sure, I can look it up in English, but I want to try and understand it in Hebrew.)

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby Golv » 2013-10-06, 22:38

Shittim is the place where the tribes of Israel were camping when the spies were dispatched to spy out the land before entering Cna'an; it doesn't refer to anyone's birthplace or something of the sort.

You still need those exercises above corrected?

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-10-06, 23:06

Golv wrote:Shittim is the place where the tribes of Israel were camping when the spies were dispatched to spy out the land before entering Cna'an; it doesn't refer to anyone's birthplace or something of the sort.

I did kind of cheat and look at the English, so I know it's the two spies that are from Shittam (in the sense you pointed out), but I couldn't find a connection in the grammar to the spies or Joshua to the phrase "from Shittam." In short, I'm saying the syntax is a bit tricky for me here. I'd like to understand how the syntax works in this part of the sentence.

You still need those exercises above corrected?

Sure, if there's anything that needs correcting, go for it. I assume Bablefish looked them over before posting two days ago, but you're more then welcome to look them over yourself. :)

תודה Golv!

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby Golv » 2013-10-07, 0:40

księżycowy wrote:I did kind of cheat and look at the English, so I know it's the two spies that are from Shittam (in the sense you pointed out), but I couldn't find a connection in the grammar to the spies or Joshua to the phrase "from Shittam." In short, I'm saying the syntax is a bit tricky for me here. I'd like to understand how the syntax works in this part of the sentence.

The two spies as well as Joshua and company. They were dispatched from their camp in Shittim.

To be honest, I am not sure I understand your difficulty with the syntax here.
I mean, other than the VSO order, isn't that pretty much exactly how you would phrase the same sentence in English? "[and] Joshua sent out from Shittim 2 spies secretly", or slightly rephrased: "two spies were secretly sent out from Shittim by Joshua" (and not "two spies from Shittim").


There were a few minor mistakes:
שרה סטודנטית.
דוויד סטודנט.
דוויד ורותם סטודנטים.
מרב ושרה סטודנטיות.
שרה באוניברסיטה.
דוויד באוניברסיטה.
שרה ודוויד באוניברסיטה.
רותם מדבר עברית.
מרב מדברית עברית.
אברהם ושרה מדברים עברית.
שרה ומרב מדברות עברית.


That's enough of those type of sentences. Now on to the "dialogs."

2.
א.
שלום! שמי דני.
נעים מאוד.
ב.
בוקר טוב, שרה! מה נשמע?
טוב, תודה!
ג.
תודה, רבקה!
בבקשה.
ד.
סליחה! מה שמך?
שמי יצחק, ומה שמך?
שמי רחל.
ה.
מה שמו? שמו רון.
ו.
יעל פרופסורית באוניברסיטה.
ז.
מרב סטודנטית באוניברסיטה.
ח.
שרה ודני סטודנטים, ואילו* עודד מורה.
ט.
דוויד ויעקוב מדברים עברית, וגם שרה מדברת עברית.
י.
יעל ועודד מדברים בטלפון.

*a conjunction that mildly contrasts two statements, similar to English's "while". not obligatory here.

:)

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-10-07, 15:10

Golv wrote:The two spies as well as Joshua and company. They were dispatched from their camp in Shittim.

To be honest, I am not sure I understand your difficulty with the syntax here.
I mean, other than the VSO order, isn't that pretty much exactly how you would phrase the same sentence in English? "[and] Joshua sent out from Shittim 2 spies secretly", or slightly rephrased: "two spies were secretly sent out from Shittim by Joshua" (and not "two spies from Shittim").

I guess it's the fact that I wasn't sure where to stick the verb "he sent" in that sentence. It's obvious that Joshua son of Nun is the subject of the sentence, but I wasn't sure if the "from Shittam" was an extension of Joshua's title. It makes sense now that I think of it though. Thanks for the help Golv!


There were a few minor mistakes:
שרה סטודנטית.
דוויד סטודנט.
דוויד ורותם סטודנטים.
מרב ושרה סטודנטיות.
שרה באוניברסיטה.
דוויד באוניברסיטה.
שרה ודוויד באוניברסיטה.
רותם מדבר עברית.
מרב מדברית עברית.
אברהם ושרה מדברים עברית.
שרה ומרב מדברות עברית.

mostly typos. :P
Though it's interesting. The name דויד only needs one vav? My textbook has two.



2.
א.
שלום! שמי דני.
נעים מאוד.
ב.
בוקר טוב, שרה! מה נשמע?
טוב, תודה!
ג.
תודה, רבקה!
בבקשה.
ד.
סליחה! מה שמך?
שמי יצחק, ומה שמך?
שמי רחל.
ה.
מה שמו? שמו רון.
ו.
יעל פרופסורית באוניברסיטה.
ז.
מרב סטודנטית באוניברסיטה.
ח.
שרה ודני סטודנטים, ואילו* עודד מורה.
ט.
דוויד ויעקוב מדברים עברית, וגם שרה מדברת עברית.
י.
יעל ועודד מדברים בטלפון.
*a conjunction that mildly contrasts two statements, similar to English's "while". not obligatory here.

:)

I have a feeling that my textbook's spelling and current usage in Israel is a bit off. :hmm:

I honestly have no idea where שמות in sentences 1 or 4 came from. Thanks for correcting that! :oops:

Whoops, sentence 9 should read:
דוד ויעקב מדברים עברית, ושרה מדברת אנגלית.

Damn, I guess I need to be more careful typing these exercises out. Sorry about that. :oops:

Once again, thanks Golv!

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-10-20, 17:25

Ok, back at it again! I recently got a copy of Modern Hebrew: An Essential Grammar, which is an awesome addition to my Modern Hebrew library! Here are an exercise from the text:

Section 2 Exercise 1:
1.
נעם הכם, בעצם כל המספחה חכם.
2.
הכלם מטונף, לגמרי מטונף.
3.
רונית וחגית מאושר אקשיו.
4.
המצלמה נפלא.
5.
החתול כל־כך רך.
6.
עכשיו הכלם נקי.
7.
הכלם והחתול כל־כך מטונף.


I have to admit that I was a bit unsure of the placement of some of the words, like "in fact" or "so." But I think it works just like in English. If not, correct away. :wink:

I'll post some more over the next day or two. I definitely want to do up to section 5 by the weekend if I can. And after I get done with the next lesson in my textbook I'll post some of those exercises too. Until then I'll keep on moving on.

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-10-24, 0:14

And the next set:

1.
הרדיו מדוד צבי.
2.
הוידאו תחת הטלוויזיה
3.
דב כבר בישראל.
4.
זה בטח בשביל סבא או סבתא.
5.
חנה תמיד עם שולה והילדים.


I understand that you can use הוא, היא, הם, הן right after the subject as well, but as I couldn't easily figure out the gender of the subjects from my grammar workbook, I opted to omit them.
Is there a difference in the translation or the meaning of the sentence with and without them? [Basically are they interchangeable to a native speaker, or do they convey different things?]

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby Babelfish » 2013-10-25, 16:22

księżycowy wrote:Section 2 Exercise 1:
1.
נעם חכם, בעצם כל המשפחה חכמה.
2.
הכלב מטונף, לגמרי מטונף.
3.
רונית וחגית מאושרות עכשיו.
4.
המצלמה נפלאה.
5.
החתול כל־כך רך.
6.
עכשיו הכלב נקי.
7.
הכלב והחתול כל־כך מטונפים.

Most of the above are typos, but there are a couple of cases where the adjectives should have agreed with the nouns they describe. The word order is just fine.
The next set is all right 8-)
The copulators הוא, היא, הם, הן don't change the meaning, almost by definition - but you'd have to know where you can put them, and no simple explanation comes to my mind. It happens that only the first sentence in the second set can take one of them without sounding unnatural or plain wrong.
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Re: księży - עברית

Postby księżycowy » 2013-10-25, 16:42

My grammar really hasn't explained their placement (yet?). Are they used much in this context?

And neither my textbook, nor my grammar have gone over adjective agreement. Though I'm sure if it's not the same as in Biblical Hebrew, it must be very similar.

תודה Bablefish! :)

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Re: księży - עברית

Postby Babelfish » 2013-11-01, 15:33

:hmm: Copulators aren't used that much in speech, if I'm not mistaken; occasionally they might be used instead of the present tense of היה (to be), which isn't used, like in Russian (and hopefully Polish).
Adjective agreement simply means that adjectives must agree in number and gender with the noun they modify; again, just like in Russian and Polish, except that Hebrew doesn't have noun cases.
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