BezierCurve wrote:1/ Someone PLEASE explain this construct form thing to me
Basically it's two nouns, one after another, where the second one stays in absolute state (i.e. the basic form you find in a dictionary) and the first one might undergo some changes to express the possession (i.e. is put into the construct state), let's take the sunglasses (glasses of sun):
mishkafayim shel shemesh -> mishkafey shemesh
The pattern is a bit different for different kinds of nouns, depending mainly on the gender and number.
Singular masculine nouns usually have a slight vowel modifications, which I guess is caused by shifting the accent toward the second noun (so the first one gets somehow shorter):
ba'yit shel 'sefer => bet 'sefer
da'var shel elo'him => dvar elo'him
There are however some nouns with the first syllable stressed (like gesher, melekh etc.), where I believe no change occurs.
Plural (and so dual as well) masculine ending -im (ים-) always changes into -ey (יי-) like in the example with the sunglasses).
Feminine singular nouns - if they end typically with -ah (ה-), in the construct state take the ending -at (ת-):
khavera shel bob => khaverat bob
In plural, feminine nouns might have some slight vowel changes (the ending goes unaffected), analogically to masculine singular forms - due to the accent shifting:
ba'not shel 'bob -> bnot 'bob
That's it, i hope (I might have missed something, please do correct me if so)...
BezierCurve wrote:2/ what does the third one literlly mean? is house modified by bob making it possessive?
Yes, as I wrote it is put into construct state where Bob is the possessor, house is the possessed part.
BezierCurve wrote:3/ do nouns with possessive enclitics not take the definite article marker?
As far as I know - no (sorry, messed up this one in the original post)
BezierCurve wrote:4/ is sefer and adjective?
Nope, it's still a noun. The whole relationship however reminds the one with adjective, since the second noun often "describes" the first one, like in bet holim, bet sefer, etc.
BezierCurve wrote:5/ I'd love to help you with this one, but I'm running short of time at the moment
BezierCurve wrote:6/ and 7/ The -et particle is only applied when the object is defined (i.e. when there is the definite article ha- or when it's a name, or if it's a determiner like ze, zot), to put ist shortly. In other cases no change occurs to the object,
so :
ani rotse dagim, but: ani rotse et hasefer or ani rotse et ze
BezierCurve wrote:8/ and 9/ I'll have to leave now without answers. Hopefully someone will help us with that.
Lynch wrote:
Exactly,
As my friend the curve explains: "bait shel bob" becomes: "beit bob" because the first noun (bait) is possessed by the second. This is always the case, the thing that possesses goes second and the thing possessed goes first and may change.
Lynch wrote:BezierCurve wrote:3/ do nouns with possessive enclitics not take the definite article marker?
As far as I know - no (sorry, messed up this one in the original post)
I'm not sure what you mean by enclitics, but this may help:
bait adom = a red house
habait adom = the house is red
habait haadom = the red house // or: the house which is red
bait haadom = does not exist
beit haadom = house of the red color // what ever this means
Lynch wrote:BezierCurve wrote:5/ I'd love to help you with this one, but I'm running short of time at the moment
Then I will:
it (m) hu
it (f) hi
this [noun] (m) ze
this [noun] (f) zot/zu/zoti
that [noun] (m) ze
that [noun] (f) zot/zu/zoti
these [noun] (m) ele/elu/halalu
these [noun] (f) ele/elu/halalu
those [noun] (m) ele/elu/halalu
those [noun] (f) ele/elu/halalu'
... I'n not sure what you mean by "mofidier" care to give an example? ...
this [modifier] (m)
this [modifier] (f)
that [modifier] (m)
that [modifier] (f)
these [modifier] (m)
those [modifier] (f)
these [modifier] (m)
those [modifier] (f)
Lynch wrote:
9/ You must give an example or two and I will tell you if I think that generalizes to everything... hard for me to understand so much linguistic terminology in one sentence.
but yossi said there were like 300+ patterns of vowel changes in a word so im loking for any sort of guide or list explaining how they work
Also, is it just me, or is reading hebrew letters odd? Normally in latin/cyrilic I'm perfectly happy cos I can see the vowels and make a sort of sound in my head, but with hebrew I just look at it and feel sort of lost.
''' wrote:Lynch wrote:
Exactly,
As my friend the curve explains: "bait shel bob" becomes: "beit bob" because the first noun (bait) is possessed by the second. This is always the case, the thing that possesses goes second and the thing possessed goes first and may change.
1/ So this construct state is only used to express possession?
''' wrote:Lynch wrote:BezierCurve wrote:3/ do nouns with possessive enclitics not take the definite article marker?
As far as I know - no (sorry, messed up this one in the original post)
I'm not sure what you mean by enclitics, but this may help:
bait adom = a red house
habait adom = the house is red
habait haadom = the red house // or: the house which is red
bait haadom = does not exist
beit haadom = house of the red color // what ever this means
From my understanding by adding -i to a noun it becomes mine, just as l- becomes li meaning 'to me' which would be wonderful as hungarian is exactly the same.
2/ My question is, if a noun takes a personal ending, thus demonstrating who owns it, does/can it still take ha- ?
''' wrote:Lynch wrote:BezierCurve wrote:5/ I'd love to help you with this one, but I'm running short of time at the moment
Then I will:
it (m) hu
it (f) hi
this [noun] (m) ze
this [noun] (f) zot/zu/zoti
that [noun] (m) ze
that [noun] (f) zot/zu/zoti
these [noun] (m) ele/elu/halalu
these [noun] (f) ele/elu/halalu
those [noun] (m) ele/elu/halalu
those [noun] (f) ele/elu/halalu'
... I'n not sure what you mean by "mofidier" care to give an example? ...
this [modifier] (m)
this [modifier] (f)
that [modifier] (m)
that [modifier] (f)
these [modifier] (m)
those [modifier] (f)
these [modifier] (m)
those [modifier] (f)
?אֶלֶה אֶלוּ הַלַלוּ
3/ by modifier I meant determiner. Namely, does hebrew have two different words for "that" as a noun and "that chair" or do you just say "the chair"
4/ So like most gendered languages, when using a pronoun in stead of a noun, you use the gendered pronoun (he/she) to describe it, similarly to German?
5/ what are ze and zot used for? Unidentified objects? In which case, how can you determine the gender? (Clearly I'm not a friend of genders)
I think I'm having an unusual amount of trouble with these ones
''' wrote:Lynch wrote:
9/ You must give an example or two and I will tell you if I think that generalizes to everything... hard for me to understand so much linguistic terminology in one sentence.
OK, take Shomer, the present tense root of ShMR. a triliteral root like this can take 2 vowels. One between the Sh and M (1) and one between M and R (2) in this case (1) has to be a long /ó/ because of the vav, but (2) is a long /é/ sound. Now, in Shomer, you HAVE to have a vowel sound in (2) because you can't pronounce Shomr. But as soon as you add a long vowel to the ending like the long /ó/ in /ót/ and the long /í/ in /ím/ this /e/ at (2) disappears. ->
shó-mér
shóm-rím
shóm-rót
but if the ending only contains a medium length vowel, the (2) only goes from long to medium
shómeret
''' wrote:but yossi said there were like 300+ patterns of vowel changes in a word so im loking for any sort of guide or list explaining how they work
''' wrote:Also, is it just me, or is reading hebrew letters odd? Normally in latin/cyrilic I'm perfectly happy cos I can see the vowels and make a sort of sound in my head, but with hebrew I just look at it and feel sort of lost.
The only way to do this is to read it with nikud at first and after a while, you'll discover that your brain ignores the vowel marks unconsciously and you can transcend to reading without nikud.
BezierCurve wrote:The only way to do this is to read it with nikud at first and after a while, you'll discover that your brain ignores the vowel marks unconsciously and you can transcend to reading without nikud.
That was my case indeed Just to avoid some confusion beforehand: some words will slightly differ in writing with and without nikkud (usually around yod and vav - that much I've noticed myself).
Lynch wrote:As for your example:
שׁוֹמֵר
Uses 'ֵ' for its 'e' vowel after the 'm'. This is opposed to it using thevowel mark which is also rendered as 'e' by modern native speakers of Hebrew. Originally, they stood for short and long versions of 'e', respectively. Now, even though they sound identical today, this characteristic of theirs still influences word formation and vowel change, like you've so skillfully noticed.
Essentially, (and may more grammar-oriented Hebrew native speakers correct me on this one) because it is the short, or weak, 'e' it is swallowed when a stressed syllable is added after it but not when an unstressed syllable is added.
thus:
shomer
shomeret
but:
shomrim
''' wrote:so, there is actually a writing system in which /o:/ /u:/ and /i:/ are not marked at all?
''' wrote:do veit fey chaf tav gimel daled and shin all change their pronounciations and/or niqqud in words under inflection, or is it a rare case for one to change?
''' wrote:I noticed that a vav or yud (vowel) added to the stem of a word never changes its pronounciation, is this always true?
''' wrote:so for nouns I need to know:
gender
singular form
plural form
construct form
that all?
and for adjectives just the singular/plural male/female variants yes?
''' wrote:I thought 2nd singular person personal suffixes were:
at - cha
ata - ach
''' wrote:what's "anu"?
''' wrote:does 2nd person pl always take /e/ before the chem/chen?
''' wrote:how do we know when to use echem or am?
''' wrote:does adding a personal suffix to a noun affect the stem?
''' wrote:if "that chair" is "hakise haze", is "those chairs" "hakise'im (?) ha'ele"? That seems wrong.
''' wrote:"at beheraion"...isn't "at" masculine, suggesting that you're asking a man whether or not he's pregs?
''' wrote:I decided years ago if I ever took up hebrew or arabic to use vowel marks, alas hebrew changes a lot, so I thought it would be simpler not to use vowels and just learn to read, though I am reconsidering this.
I'm thinking I should learn a list of some few hundred basic words and verbs and start playing with them and get corrections as I go along. I think I'm starting to get the basic idea. Reminds me of my own language a lot.
''' wrote:P.S. what are the completely irregular verbs beside lihyot?
Ha ha dag - point in case!Babelfish wrote:...and in time you might recognize such underlying rules, which even native speakers rarely know.
''' wrote:ok, we have a slight problem. In canb, my computer does NOT support hebrew characters in starroffice, meaing the files I wrote are now all but useless. I need a way to show alll the letters that neooffice does on my mac, but in staroffice on my linux. Actually, what I need is a new text editor. One which has most of the cool featues of *office, but can handle IPA, all manner of slphabets, reverse writing (well), tables, and charts. Without being a load of shit, costing any (real) money, and needs to have good support and run on linux. Anyone help me out?
''' wrote:1/ do words starting with k v or p change that sound if they take a prefix?
''' wrote:2/ does a word in construct state ever change its consnants?
''' wrote:also, any plans for a converter on here which supports dagesh and niqqud?
''' wrote:No, I can theoretically redo my keyboard to be able to write any range of letters, but inserting dageshim and niqqudim may not be possible if they don't have an independent code. but all these weird little combo's aren't set for me.
neooffice does do hebrew, if it has the characters (they aren't always default) but it's a load of shit. An absolute horror to use.
''' wrote:When I said consonant, I meant letter, so anything which is written in non-niqqud text.
no luck on the final pe and kaf?
''' wrote:Sooo, unlike the initial forms, the final forms of those letters always represent the weak sound?
''' wrote:excellent. Now after i try to recreate the files I had, and re-gig my keyboard (I hunted through the unicode lists) we may even get down to my first real sentence. YAY. Any list of essencial words?
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