Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

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Lemanensis
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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Lemanensis » 2015-11-23, 6:53

AlanF_US wrote:Tellingly, there is no single word that expresses compassion for oneself.


How would that work? The 'com-' (co-, con-) prefix indicates 'with someone else' so 'compassion for oneself' would be like saying 'conversation with oneself', which is why we say 'talking to oneself' (and 'feeling sorry for oneself' I guess in the case you mention).

:D
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Saim
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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Saim » 2015-11-24, 9:35

מישהו ידע למה כותבים "תאוריה" ב"ת"? חשבתי שההוראה זו שכותבים את המילים מיונית ולטינית תמיד ב"ט" (טלפון, טסטוסטרון, לטיני...).

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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Lemanensis » 2015-11-24, 16:44

Saim wrote:
מישהו ידע למה כותבים "תאוריה" ב"ת"? חשבתי שההוראה זו שכותבים את המילים מיונית ולטינית תמיד ב"ט" (טלפון, טסטוסטרון, לטיני...).


ת = th
ט = t
אז תיאטרון
תאוריה

and it also explains why some words are transcribed from Hebrew with th, such as names of hospitals in the USA (Beth for בית)
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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby DAK » 2015-11-27, 17:37

Please can anyone help? I am confused about the uses of kodem and lifnei in time expressions such as "two weeks ago" or "the previous two weeks".

Thanks for looking

David

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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby AlanF_US » 2015-12-01, 13:32

Can מזויף be used to translate "fake" in the sense of an insincere or artificial person? If not, what word would be used for that?

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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Saim » 2015-12-27, 11:22

מישהו יכול להסביר מה ההבגל בן "עם" לבן "אומה"?

Lemanensis wrote:
Saim wrote:
מישהו ידע למה כותבים "תאוריה" ב"ת"? חשבתי שההוראה זו שכותבים את המילים מיונית ולטינית תמיד ב"ט" (טלפון, טסטוסטרון, לטיני...).


ת = th
ט = t
אז תיאטרון
תאוריה

and it also explains why some words are transcribed from Hebrew with th, such as names of hospitals in the USA (Beth for בית)


תודה. :)

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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Hadronic » 2015-12-27, 14:17

Lemanensis wrote:
Saim wrote:
מישהו ידע למה כותבים "תאוריה" ב"ת"? חשבתי שההוראה זו שכותבים את המילים מיונית ולטינית תמיד ב"ט" (טלפון, טסטוסטרון, לטיני...).


ת = th
ט = t
אז תיאטרון
תאוריה

and it also explains why some words are transcribed from Hebrew with th, such as names of hospitals in the USA (Beth for בית)



The ironic thing is that Greek "th" (theta) takes the place of Hebrew ט (tet) and Greek "t" (tau) the place of Hebrew ת (tav) in the alphabetical order and in naming.
Alpha beta gamma delta epsilon zeta êta theta iota kappa... rhô sigma tau
Aleph bet gimmel dalet hey (vav) zayin khet tet yod kaf... resh shin tav

The same goes for the other Greek aspirate : k ק / kh כ.

The reason of this crossover is that when Greeks took their alphabet from the Phoenician alphabet, they took the plain consonants for their plain consonants (tav for tau, kaf for kappa, pey for pi), and the emphatic consonants for their aspirated consonants (tet for theta).
Later, Hebrew's plain series started lenition while the emphatic series lost its emphasis. In the same time, the Greek aspirates became fricative.

tav - tau / tet theta
θ - t / t - θ

Resulting in Hebrew plain now matching the Greek aspirate, and the Hebrew emphatic matching the Greek plain.
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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby AlanF_US » 2016-02-07, 15:32

Is there a difference between קטל and הרג?

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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Golv » 2016-02-08, 22:17

קטל is usually used to mean killing in large numbers.
For instance: קוטל חרקים, הקטל בדרכים

In slang, קטל is also used in a similar sense to the exclamation "burn", when two people would exchange banter and one would manage to land such a triumphantly witty insult that the other party is left unable to counter.

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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby AlanF_US » 2016-02-15, 15:00

Ah, I see. Thanks, Golv!

My next question involves the presence or absence of yod in spelling. I could swear that I see some people write:

אתה היתה
היא היתה

while others write:

אתה הייתה
היא הייתה

Then again, when I search for these phrases with the single-yod form in Google Search, I am asked whether I want to search for the double-yod form instead, so perhaps I should just use the double-yod.

I'm also confused as to when to insert a yod in the first syllable in a verb in the פיעל. I believe there's a distinction between "open" and "closed" syllables, the former being syllables that end with the vowel. Apparently, these are supposed to end with a written yod, while the yod should be eliminated from closed syllables:

ניחשתם (open)
טלפן (closed)

Is that correct? This distinction feels artificial and hard to internalize, but if it really determines how to spell these words, I need to find some way of learning it.

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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Hadronic » 2016-02-15, 18:19

The most common spellings are :
אתה היית (never with ה!)
היא הייתה, but היא היתה is not rare.

For the yod in pi'el verbs, you're right : yod is added only when in open syllable. In closed syllable (meaning, for quadrilateral roots), yod shouldn't be added, except when ambiguity may arise, especially in the action noun (שם פעולה). Ex.: מחזור maxzor cycle, מיחזור mixzur recycling.

The reason why it is so is an "extention" of a Massoretic rule : short i (xiriq) in closed syllable only, long i in open syllable only.
Now, originally, pi'el verbs had the middle consonant doubled (geminated, with dagesh khazak), resulting in the first syllable being closed : hu' dibber. No yod was to be used.
But in modern Hebrew, gemination was dropped and the i found itself again in open syllable position: hu diber, somehow legitimating the addition of a yod.

Same logic in the nif'al pattern:
נפגש nifgash, without,
להיפגש lehipagesh ( < lehippagesh), with.
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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby AlanF_US » 2016-02-16, 13:13

Thanks for the excellent reply, Hadronic! Now that I have some more context, the distinction no longer feels so artificial to me.

I can now see that most of the Google hits for אתה הייתה were cases where the words appeared in different sentences, or where a mistake was being corrected. I will use אתה היית faithfully from now on.

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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Hadronic » 2016-02-17, 3:20

Also, just for the record, keep in mind the different pronunciations : ata hayíta, but hi haytá.
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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Lemanensis » 2016-02-17, 5:41

Hadronic wrote:But in modern Hebrew, gemination was dropped and the i found itself again in open syllable position: hu diber, somehow legitimating the addition of a yod.


But also because adding an extra yud in piel helps avoid any misreading (diber => davar).

Have (recently!) been told that Hebrew natives will never find it wrong/think it strange if you add a yud and a vav wherever you hear the sounds I and U, and don't forget that the double yud also represents the A-I diphthong.
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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Hadronic » 2016-02-17, 12:52

Lemanensis wrote:
But also because adding an extra yud in piel helps avoid any misreading (diber => davar).


I think you got the issue the other way around.
Of course, it is for added readability. Nobody objects to that. The case in point is, why aren't all "i" sounds written as a yod, like סימלה for סמלה, or מיספר for מספר.
The answer is the one given above, as per the Academy.

Now, sure, natives aren't so prescriptive ;)
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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Lemanensis » 2016-02-17, 15:43

Hadronic wrote:
Lemanensis wrote:
But also because adding an extra yud in piel helps avoid any misreading (diber => davar).


I think you got the issue the other way around.
Of course, it is for added readability. Nobody objects to that. The case in point is, why aren't all "i" sounds written as a yod, like סימלה for סמלה, or מיספר for מספר.
The answer is the one given above, as per the Academy.

Now, sure, natives aren't so prescriptive ;)


But I think the Academy is merely taking a middle road because in some cases it really makes a difference for natives. No consonant should need to be used to replace a vowel - but we do it for readability. I sense that native speakers are shifting gradually to a more phonetic spelling as it's easier for them too.
But it's only an opinion.
(incidentally, natives make lots of spelling mistakes. I've also seen them write the second person masculine past tense with an extra hey and it's very confusing).
Martin
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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Hadronic » 2016-02-17, 17:35

That middle road is still too conservative though for most speakers. I think that מספר for mispar "a number" and מיספר for misper "to number, numéroter", is widely accepted and used, even in newspapers, but the Academy hasn't approved it yet, because of that "closed syllable" thing. In literature, you would rather see an isolated nikkud (xiriq in this case) wherever confusion may arise.
Last edited by Hadronic on 2016-02-29, 19:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby dani.blo94 » 2016-02-29, 19:09

Hi, I have a little question.

what does it mean in english this words "תודה על כל אמא ואבא" ?

Thanks!!

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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby Lemanensis » 2016-03-02, 20:43

dani.blo94 wrote:Hi, I have a little question.

what does it mean in english this words "תודה על כל אמא ואבא" ?

Thanks!!


= "Thanks for everything, Mum and Dad"
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Re: Discussion Group for General Hebrew Questions

Postby AlanF_US » 2016-03-21, 12:02

Is there a difference between נזף and גער?


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