What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

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What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby xBlackWolfx » 2014-12-22, 7:24

Yes, I know there's an actual forum for Korean, but I don't think asking such a basic question (pronunciation is obviously the most basic thing you have to learn in a language...) would be appropriate for a forum more focused on grammar. And besides, this is more about phonology than 'learning' the language.

I've read various contradictory claims on what the tense consonants actually are. I've read that they're faucalized, stiff, and just follow an odd sort of voicing rule. To me, they sound kind of like the germinated consonants of Japanese, but not quite.

What are they actually? I want a linguistic answer to this.

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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-12-22, 8:18

I don't understand what exactly faucalized voice is, but from a phonological (not phonetic) standpoint I believe they're voiceless, unaspirated, fortis stops. This differentiates them from the unaspirated lenis stops (which are allophonically voiced within words) and the aspirated voiceless stops (which are never voiced). Historically, they may have been geminates (which would explain why they're written as such) but I don't know the history of the language at all.
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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-12-22, 21:56

xBlackWolfx wrote:Yes, I know there's an actual forum for Korean, but I don't think asking such a basic question (pronunciation is obviously the most basic thing you have to learn in a language...) would be appropriate for a forum more focused on grammar. And besides, this is more about phonology than 'learning' the language.

No, generally, those questions are also on the actual forums specific to the language.

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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby Johanna » 2014-12-22, 23:59

[admin]If you've got a question specific to one language, you should post it in the appropriate language-specific forum or thread.[/admin]
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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby xBlackWolfx » 2014-12-24, 15:00

Can someone at least give me a hint as to what I'm supposed to be listening for? I can do aspiration, but I can't hear the difference between the 'tense' consonants and the 'soft' consonants (well, besides 's', but in that case its obvious that the 'soft s' is heavily aspirated).

The only recording I can find is that one KWOW video, but I don't think she's even a native speaker. And I'm not sure if her audio recording is even picking it up all that well. I literally hear no difference at all, besides a very very brief pause before tense consonants, but that's only on freak occasions.

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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-12-26, 21:50

I've never been able to tell the difference either. If I had to guess, I'd say the tense stops are held longer and pronounced louder. That's about all I can tell you. I'm surprised the language has kept this distinction for so long when it's so unusual and subtle.
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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby linguoboy » 2014-12-27, 17:39

mōdgethanc wrote:I've never been able to tell the difference either. If I had to guess, I'd say the tense stops are held longer and pronounced louder. That's about all I can tell you. I'm surprised the language has kept this distinction for so long when it's so unusual and subtle.

Because they're pronounced with greater force and Korean lacks grammatical syllable stress, English-speakers may perceive syllables with tense consonants in the onset as being stressed.

Initially, the "voiced" consonants are often slightly aspirated (more than in English, but still less than the "aspirated" consonants) but "tense" consonants never are. For that reason, they're often used to render, for instance, the fully-voiced consonants of Japanese.
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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-12-28, 7:33

linguoboy wrote:Because they're pronounced with greater force and Korean lacks grammatical syllable stress, English-speakers may perceive syllables with tense consonants in the onset as being stressed.
I've often wondered about stress in Korean: does it exist at the phonetic level, like French? Since the standard language has lost its pitch accent, unlike Japanese, I have to wonder how speakers keep track of syllables if there is no phonemic stress or tone at all. Or is there predictable stress, like Hungarian and French?
Initially, the "voiced" consonants are often slightly aspirated (more than in English, but still less than the "aspirated" consonants) but "tense" consonants never are. For that reason, they're often used to render, for instance, the fully-voiced consonants of Japanese.
This is what really baffles me. If we look at voicing as allophonic, we have a three-way distinction between voiceless consonants, which is AFAIK very rare (except unless one set is ejective). There are languages that have lenis and fortis stops, and that have aspirated stops, but I don't know of any other language that has all three. The fact that the lenis stops are sometimes aspirated just confuses me even more.

(Speaking of which, Korean must have some pretty damn heavily aspirated stops if the lenis ones are more aspirated than the English voiceless ones.)
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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby linguoboy » 2014-12-28, 16:08

mōdgethanc wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Because they're pronounced with greater force and Korean lacks grammatical syllable stress, English-speakers may perceive syllables with tense consonants in the onset as being stressed.
I've often wondered about stress in Korean: does it exist at the phonetic level, like French? Since the standard language has lost its pitch accent, unlike Japanese, I have to wonder how speakers keep track of syllables if there is no phonemic stress or tone at all. Or is there predictable stress, like Hungarian and French?
It's phonetic, falling mainly on those syllables with tense or aspirated consonants in their onsets. Otherwise, it tends to be even throughout. So in 아범 /apem/ "elderly manservant", I don't perceive any difference in stress between the syllables whereas in 아픔 /aphum/ "being painful", it definitely sounds like there is stress on the last syllable.

mōdgethanc wrote:
Initially, the "voiced" consonants are often slightly aspirated (more than in English, but still less than the "aspirated" consonants) but "tense" consonants never are. For that reason, they're often used to render, for instance, the fully-voiced consonants of Japanese.
This is what really baffles me. If we look at voicing as allophonic, we have a three-way distinction between voiceless consonants, which is AFAIK very rare (except unless one set is ejective). There are languages that have lenis and fortis stops, and that have aspirated stops, but I don't know of any other language that has all three. The fact that the lenis stops are sometimes aspirated just confuses me even more.
I tend to think of the "tense" consonants as essentially filling the same role as ejectives in other languages.

mōdgethanc wrote:(Speaking of which, Korean must have some pretty damn heavily aspirated stops if the lenis ones are more aspirated than the English voiceless ones.)
It can be over 100 milliseconds, whereas English stops are typically in the range of 80-90 ms.
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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-12-28, 19:45

linguoboy wrote:It's phonetic, falling mainly on those syllables with tense or aspirated consonants in their onsets. Otherwise, it tends to be even throughout. So in 아범 /apem/ "elderly manservant", I don't perceive any difference in stress between the syllables whereas in 아픔 /aphum/ "being painful", it definitely sounds like there is stress on the last syllable.
So you're sure it's really stress there, and you're not just perceiving it that way?

I mean, I find it doubtful that the language has no phonetic stress at all. I can't think of a single language that doesn't have it, except ones that have tone instead, and Korean doesn't.
I tend to think of the "tense" consonants as essentially filling the same role as ejectives in other languages.
I guess you could look at it that way. On the other hand, ejectives aren't common in that part of the world, so it seems unusual.
It can be over 100 milliseconds, whereas English stops are typically in the range of 80-90 ms.
For the lenis ones? That can't be right. I was under the impression /p, t, tɕ, k/ had light aspiration (less than English) while /pʰ, tʰ, tɕʰ, kʰ/ were stronger than English.
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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby linguoboy » 2014-12-29, 3:09

mōdgethanc wrote:
linguoboy wrote:It's phonetic, falling mainly on those syllables with tense or aspirated consonants in their onsets. Otherwise, it tends to be even throughout. So in 아범 /apem/ "elderly manservant", I don't perceive any difference in stress between the syllables whereas in 아픔 /aphum/ "being painful", it definitely sounds like there is stress on the last syllable.
So you're sure it's really stress there, and you're not just perceiving it that way?

I mean, I find it doubtful that the language has no phonetic stress at all. I can't think of a single language that doesn't have it, except ones that have tone instead, and Korean doesn't.

I don't understand what you're asking. I already told you Korean has phonetic stress and where it's placed.

Something I was reading today said that, in Standard Korean, syllables with tense/aspirated onsets are pronounced with high pitch (one of the three components of "stress" in English along with length and loudness) and those with lax onsets exhibit a low-high contour. Moreover, the speech of younger speakers shows less of a consistent distinction between initial lax and aspirated consonants and more overlap in VOT, so Korean is potentially initiating a form of tonogenesis seen in many other East and Southeast Asian languages.

mōdgethanc wrote:
It can be over 100 milliseconds, whereas English stops are typically in the range of 80-90 ms.
For the lenis ones? That can't be right. I was under the impression /p, t, tɕ, k/ had light aspiration (less than English) while /pʰ, tʰ, tɕʰ, kʰ/ were stronger than English.

No, for the "aspirated" ones (but see above).
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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-12-29, 18:25

Never mind, I misread what you said.
Something I was reading today said that, in Standard Korean, syllables with tense/aspirated onsets are pronounced with high pitch (one of the three components of "stress" in English along with length and loudness) and those with lax onsets exhibit a low-high contour. Moreover, the speech of younger speakers shows less of a consistent distinction between initial lax and aspirated consonants and more overlap in VOT, so Korean is potentially initiating a form of tonogenesis seen in many other East and Southeast Asian languages.
Or possibly a remnant of an older tone system.
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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby linguoboy » 2014-12-29, 19:22

mōdgethanc wrote:
Something I was reading today said that, in Standard Korean, syllables with tense/aspirated onsets are pronounced with high pitch (one of the three components of "stress" in English along with length and loudness) and those with lax onsets exhibit a low-high contour. Moreover, the speech of younger speakers shows less of a consistent distinction between initial lax and aspirated consonants and more overlap in VOT, so Korean is potentially initiating a form of tonogenesis seen in many other East and Southeast Asian languages.
Or possibly a remnant of an older tone system.

No, because the pitch-accent system of Early Modern Korean wasn't dependent on the voicing characteristics of initial segments. This is clearly a new development.
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Re: What exactly are the 'tense' consonants of Korean?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-12-30, 3:27

What confused me is that you said:
Because they're pronounced with greater force and Korean lacks grammatical syllable stress, English-speakers may perceive syllables with tense consonants in the onset as being stressed.

and then you said:
It's phonetic, falling mainly on those syllables with tense or aspirated consonants in their onsets. Otherwise, it tends to be even throughout. So in 아범 /apem/ "elderly manservant", I don't perceive any difference in stress between the syllables whereas in 아픔 /aphum/ "being painful", it definitely sounds like there is stress on the last syllable.

so I was unsure if you were speaking from your own perception, or if you'd heard it from a reliable source instead. You did say "I don't perceive any difference in stress", but whether you perceive it or not is unrelated to whether it's there.

Conversely, I can't perceive the difference between the tense consonants and good old-fashioned tenius stops, but there is one.
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