Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

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Obers
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Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

Postby Obers » 2014-02-06, 16:55

Is an inserted [t] sound acceptable in standard German pronunciation or should I aim for a pronunciation without the plosive?

E.g.
Hals [hals] vs [halts]
Hans [hans] vs [hants]

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Re: Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

Postby linguoboy » 2014-02-06, 17:06

You should try to avoid inserting a sound, as it can change the meaning of a word. Ganz [ˈgant͡s] is not the same word as Gans [ˈgans], nor is Falz [ˈfalt͡s] the same as falls [ˈfals].
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Obers
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Re: Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

Postby Obers » 2014-02-06, 19:02

Thank you!

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Re: Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

Postby Moritz » 2014-03-07, 22:37

You can do it sometimes, since you can sound more "native" by doing that, but in precise speech you better do not change [s, z] into [ts, dz] (remember that it only happens after /n, l/ or even /R/, for those who regionally pronounce it as an alveolar flap or alveolar trill, and only inside a word in unstressed syllables) ; there is also regional differences in regards of this homorganic change ; this happens much less in the South, especially in Austria and Switzerland

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Re: Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

Postby PiotrR » 2014-03-08, 9:06

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Re: Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

Postby Moritz » 2014-03-08, 15:21

PiotrR wrote:
Moritz wrote:but in precise speech you better do not change [s, z] into [ts, dz]

/z/? [dz]? Are you sure?

I've always though that [d͡z] is just an allophone of /t͡s/ for some speakers.

[d͡z] (either as a perfect affricate or a sequence /dz/) can be an allophone of [z] in these homorganic contexts (think of internal words like "also", although in this particular form the "l" can also be dropped, resulting in "aso", with a short /a/) ; since German words, despite the orthography, only end with a devoiced consonant at the end of a word (even when the next word is followed by a vowel or a voiced diphonic consonant), it's impossible to have /z/ (and even less [d͡z] ) in these contexts, but in "internal" contexts, /z/ is almost exclusively (so much that they do that also in foreign languages) the only possibility for words with a sonorant consonant /n, l, R; the latter one also when vocalised) + orthographic "s" (think of Hanse, also, Börse, all with /z/) ; let's remember that however that [z] is almost nonexistent (except if voluntarily introduced) in many Southern accents, including CH and AT

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Re: Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

Postby PiotrR » 2014-03-08, 16:13

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Re: Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

Postby Moritz » 2014-03-08, 18:15

> That's not true for Swiss German (both standard and dialectal). In addition, Rheinland German voices word-final voiced consonants if the next word begins with a vowel - it's also true for Luxembourgish. Examples:
mit uns -> mid uns
darf ich -> darv ich
* Yes, but we are more focusing on the "standard" accent(s) ; regional accents have to be left apart (and even less regional dialects, although in the "Cologne" or "Central Rhineland" region this voiceless to voiced shift is frequent in the broad accent)

> That's obvious, but have you actually got any recordings that present an affrication of /z/? Or even better, a reliable source that would confirm the existence of it.

I'm not sure if there's indeed no /z/ in much of the south. The /s/ - /z/ contrast may be still there as a fortis - lenis one, with both consonants always being voiceless.

* Listen to Germans and see what I mean ; that has also been confirmed by many phonologists (and one in particular that does a very good job with that, Luciano Canepari).. the contrast between /s, z/ in the South depends on the regional accents, but in general it's weaker

> That's really hard to believe. Any sources to back that up?

* Not the affrication, but the /z/ sound in words with -VrsV- (V stands for vowel); of course they do not affricate in this context, they may do only for some regional speakers (the ones who apply this homorganic shift also for /ns, ls/ mostly) who do not vocalise postnuclear /R/ and have an alveolar articulation in this place
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Re: Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

Postby PiotrR » 2014-03-08, 18:35

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO
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Re: Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

Postby Moritz » 2014-03-08, 18:46

PiotrR wrote:
That's not true for Swiss German (both standard and dialectal).

Standard Swiss German is a standard accent - in Switzerland.

It's not the most desirable feature though, even inside of Switzerland (even some regional speakers of Switzerland try to not sound the consonant), and would hardly be considered standard in Germany or Austria ; despite all of that you are right, many Swiss generally do

PiotrR wrote:His works are full of original research, and not error-free (he calls TRAP as [a] non-RP, which given the fact it's so widespread is plain insane.) He invented an interesting alphabet though.

Everyone does mistakes ; I think you are confusing his Estuary /æ/ [A] with [a] ([A] is between [a] and [æ], in his alphabet).. this is often a voluntary effort to avoid a stigmatised opener timbre ; it still contrasts his /ɐ/ [a] of words like "run"[/quote]

PiotrR wrote:[Citation needed] for the bold part. Or at least please provide a recording of a native speaker who does that.

Now I can't, but when I get back home I will find one example (regional one)

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Re: Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

Postby PiotrR » 2014-03-08, 18:54

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO
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Re: Correct pronunciation of <ls> <ns>

Postby kevin » 2014-03-08, 19:32

PiotrR wrote:I'm not sure if there's indeed no /z/ in much of the south. The /s/ - /z/ contrast may be still there as a fortis - lenis one, with both consonants always being voiceless.

I can't speak for the whole south, but unless you have sources that say otherwise, I'll keep considering /z/ non-existent in at least most of the south.

Here around anyway, there is no distinction between /s/ and /z/, even in the standard language. "Busen" and "Bußen" sounds exactly the same. (Took my a while to find a minimal pair - the usual one is "reisen"/"reißen", but another regional feature present in our standard German is that these <ei> don't sound the same.)


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