German is 169 languages?

[burnlaur25]

This guy, a linguist, says that German is not 20 languages as Ethnologue states, but is actually 169 languages. His criteria is intelligibility. >90% intelligibility = dialect, <90% intelligibility = separate language.

I could not believe it so I sent him an email and he said he had the support of some of the world's top Germanists, at least when he was at 70 languages.

The German dialects are really that different? They can't really understand each other, can they? But everyone just uses Standard German, so there should be few communication problems.

If this is true, the German dialectal diversity is incredible!

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/a-reworking-of-german-language-classification/.

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/a-reworking-of-german-language-classification-part-1-low-german/. Low German.

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/a-reworking-of-german-language-classification-part-2-middle-german/ Middle German.

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-classification-part-3-high-german/ High German.

[Boes]

This guy, a linguist, says that German is not 20 languages as Ethnologue states, but is actually 169 languages. His criteria is intelligibility. >90% intelligibility = dialect, <90% intelligibility = separate language.

I could not believe it so I sent him an email and he said he had the support of some of the world's top Germanists, at least when he was at 70 languages.

The German dialects are really that different? They can't really understand each other, can they? But everyone just uses Standard German, so there should be few communication problems.

If this is true, the German dialectal diversity is incredible!

Well, in most cases, no two neighboring dialects are so far apart that intelligibility is so low that one can't understand the speaker of the other dialect. Diversity within German (though that isn't by far the best term to use for the subject truly at hand here) is large. 'German' has a relativly large native range so what's to expect? Though there are quite a few languages which have porpotionally larger internal differences than German has.

Of course some things do bother me concerning this linguist. For example it seems strange he'd take the standard language as a measuring tool for 'separate language' status. Secondly... I find it odd that a linguist would bother about an (arguably) pointless discussion on 'languages vs. dialects in the first place ...

Adding: Looking at his website ... I don't think this person is an actual linguist. Most information seems to be directly copied of wikipedia....

[Quevenois]

Ok.

[feati]

I would have to try really, really hard if I wanted someone to only understand 90% of what I'm saying.

There may be many dialects/seperate languages in Germany that aren't mutually intelligible but how many people actually speak one of them? My guess would be less than 5% of the German population. Probably close to 0% in some regions. Now take out every speakers who's older than 50 and there's almost no one left...

[burnlaur25]

If this is true, the German dialectal diversity is incredible!

Breton is even more diverse, and Western Brittany is much smaller than the German-speaking area

Hi, to what extent can these dialects understand each other? That is, is Breton more than one language also by this metric of <90% intelligibility = separate language?

[burnlaur25]

I would have to try really, really hard if I wanted someone to only understand 90% of what I'm saying.

There may be many dialects/seperate languages in Germany that aren't mutually intelligible but how many people actually speak one of them? My guess would be less than 5% of the German population. Probably close to 0% in some regions. Now take out every speakers who's older than 50 and there's almost no one left...

I guess if you get down towards the South, a lot of people speak dialect - Swabisch, Bavarian, Franconian. And down there they speak them all the way down to children level. I know someone who speaks Standard German and also knows some dialects well, and she told me that when her father and his friends start speaking Erzgebirgisch, she cannot understand one single word of what they are saying. Erzgebirgisch is spoken down near Chemnitz.

I think dialect is still heavily spoken in the Upper Saxony, Palatine, Saarland and the Ripaurian area too (Kolsch). Everything south of the 51st parallel in Germany is pretty much a dialect speaking area.

[Mr.N]

I went to Friesland two weeks ago. I had my room in a small hotel run by a family. They were talking in Platt all the time. Both parents and their three children were speaking Platt to each other. I thought it sounded pretty, liked that language.

[linguoboy]

There may be many dialects/seperate languages in Germany that aren't mutually intelligible but how many people actually speak one of them? My guess would be less than 5% of the German population. Probably close to 0% in some regions. Now take out every speakers who's older than 50 and there's almost no one left...

Why guess? It's not like there's no literature on the subject. In his work Soziolinguistik, Professor Ammon of the Universität Duisburg-Essen summarises recent findings and states that even in central and northern Germany, around a third of the population describe their dialect competence as "good" and that the percentage only increases as one moves south, until Switzerland where it approaches 100%.

[Saaropean]

There may be many dialects/seperate languages in Germany that aren't mutually intelligible but how many people actually speak one of them? My guess would be less than 5% of the German population. Probably close to 0% in some regions. Now take out every speakers who's older than 50 and there's almost no one left...

According to a recent study, 60% of Germans speak a dialect, mostly in the south of the country:
- 94% in Saarland
- 86% in Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg
- 83% in eastern Berlin
- 75% in Rhineland-Palatinate
- 46% average in the other 11½ states



Wikipedia has more information if you're interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_dialects
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Dialekte

I grew up in Saarland and Ba-Wü with Standard German (Hochdeutsch), two different West Middle German dialects (Rhine and Moselle Franconian) as well as an Upper German dialect (Swabian).

[linguaholic]

I grew up in East Berlin and what people call "speaking with a dialect" here means "speaking with a Berlin accent". I don't know anyone in my generation who speaks real dialect and only 1 or 2 older persons who I think can speak Berlin dialect.

[linguoboy]

I grew up in East Berlin and what people call "speaking with a dialect" here means "speaking with a Berlin accent". I don't know anyone in my generation who speaks real dialect and only 1 or 2 older persons who I think can speak Berlin dialect.

Yes, Ammon (and other researchers) address this as well. With dialects--as with standard languages--almost all our data on number of speakers is self-reported, so it's hard to say what any given speaker means by the term. More objective studies (which are of necessity much more localised) have shown that there is often a gap between older speakers and younger speakers, the latter being more likely to identify "dialect" with what in traditional dialectology is called a "regional vernacular" (regionale Umgangssprache), i.e. a regional form of Standard German strongly influenced by the local dialect substratum. Again, the further south you live in Germany, the less likely you are to make this equivalence.

[feati]

Seems like I was dead wrong with my assumption. From now on, I'll try not to generalize when it comes to things like this.

But the fact is that in my region, the local dialect (Kölsch) really is slowly dying out. Many people are able to (more or less) speak Kölsch but most prefer not to. It's common to hear "wat", "dat", [j] for /g/, velarized /l/ and /n/ and unaspirated plosives where you'd expect aspirated ones, but that's pretty much it. Still >90% understandable. I rarely hear someone speak "real" Kölsch.

And that's a serious problem with studies like the ones you guys have posted: People that are able to speak a dialect don't necessarily prefer it over Standard Hochdeutsch and/or use it in everyday conversations. If someone asked me if I was able to speak a dialect, I'd definitely say yes - and that's true - but I can't recall a single situation where I actually spoke Kölsch to someone.
Another problem is the meaning of "dialect". It can also mean "variation of a language spoken by people from the same region" and by that definition, it's impossible to not speak a dialect. The transition from this to what we commonly refer to as "dialect" is seamless.

[Mat81]

Same with Berlin, the dialect is dying too, my mother *can* speak it but doesn't and I wouldn't even be able to speak it without sounding ridiculous.. And I was born and lived 16 years in Berlin!!

[dunkelwald]

I myself don't think the actual number is 5%, but I don't think it's 60% either. What feati described in his last post is something I would call a regiolect according to my definition, but not a dialect, however it's difficult to distinguish between those for many people, and I don't think there are universal definitions.
Another question I have is: What is 90% intelligibility. I personally am quite good at understanding some dialects, like the Swiss dialects, and I live (and have always lived) in the far western area of Germany, and I've never been to Switzerland. However other people might fail at simpler dialects or understand them even better. And what are you supposed to understand? The basic proposition of a sentence in context? All the word forms in their nuances, the morphemes without getting acquainted to a dialect for at least some minutes (not talking about learning it here, just listening to it for like 20 minutes)? And then there's the dialect continuum which has already been mentioned. People speaking neighbouring dialects should hardly have any problem in understanding each other, however if you draw the continuum, the first and the last person might have serious problem doing the same thing.
If you want to draw a continuum, you could btw include Dutch as being German as well. So everything gets kind of blurred here. Then again, if you read a text about quantum physics and don't know anything about physics at all, it might still be your language (and feel like your language of course), but you won't understand 90% anyway, the same goes for local traditions and things, which might still be an important part in one dialect or another.
I personally don't know who keeps classifying languages in terms of "this is one language and this another", in my opinion, that's rather impossible to do when there isn't a clear border.

[Boes]

If you want to draw a continuum, you could btw include Dutch as being German as well.

Erm, no you couldn't.

[dunkelwald]

OK, why not? How are Dutch and Low German not in a continuum?

//Edit: I guess there are many Dutch and Low German dialects that share a intelligibility of 90% at least in terms of some definition.

[Boes]

OK, why not? How are Dutch and Low German not in a continuum?

How does that make Dutch part of German ?!

Btw, the Dutch/Low Saxon continuum boundary, lies in the Netherlands; and does not equal the German/Dutch border. There is no direct continuum between German Low Saxon dialects and Dutch proper.

//Edit: I guess there are many Dutch and Low German dialects that share a intelligibility of 90% at least in terms of some definition.

I would very much like to differ.

[dunkelwald]

Yeah, that seems to be a sensitive topic for Dutch people. I never stated anywhere that Dutch is part of German. I just stated that Dutch dialects could be classified as a part of a German dialect continuum, which in turn says that Low German dialects (and in consequence also Middle and High German dialects) could be classified as a part of a Dutch dialect continuum. I just chose it that way, because we are discussing German dialects here. If you start a similar thread on Dutch dialects, I might add to the discussion that Low German dialects could be added to a Dutch dialect continuum. I'm not a cultural imperialist in any way. I want to preserve as many languages/dialects as possible. We could as well call the continuum "Continental West Germanic continuum" or whatever, it doesn't matter, but in this thread, we are discussing German dialects and that's why I chose to put it that way. And I know, and I'm perfectly fine with the fact that the border you mentioned is in the Netherlands.
I myself can understand Dutch texts like news and most chat discussions perfectly when written. I wouldn't say the same for advanced literature, but I guess the same goes for many Dutch people and German, and even when hearing Dutch news, I understand a lot (I'd probably put it to 50-60%, despite disagreeing with an establishment of such percentages), that's why I guess that somebody speaking a dialect being much closer to Dutch might understand "90%" of some Dutch dialects, and of course - even though not all comprehension is mutual - I assume that the same goes for Dutch dialect speakers and German dialects/Standard German.

//Edit: By noting that this is a sensitive topic for Dutch people, I don't want to insult anyone, it's just I have made this experience more than once. Of course, I can understand when Dutch people get angry when somebody says that Dutch is German, but this is definitely not the point I was trying to make here.

[Boes]

Yeah, that seems to be a sensitive topic for Dutch people. I never stated anywhere that Dutch is part of German.

Yes, you did:

If you want to draw a continuum, you could btw include Dutch as being German as well.

There is a (moribunt) dialect continuum, and it's called the (Continental) West Germanic continuum. It's been called that way for quite a while now, since the 60s, and to call it the "German dialect continuum" is offensive in everyday life, and incorrect in linguistics.

I am Dutch and I speak Dutch, and just because certain Low German dialect exhibits cercain traits of my language doesn´t mean I speak German. Nor does the fact that German has more speakers make it okay for you to generalize on the continuums name.

I myself can understand Dutch texts like news and most chat discussions perfectly when written. I wouldn't say the same for advanced literature, but I guess the same goes for many Dutch people and German, and even when hearing Dutch news, I understand a lot (I'd probably put it to 50-60%, despite disagreeing with an establishment of such percentages), that's why I guess that somebody speaking a dialect being much closer to Dutch might understand "90%" of some Dutch dialects, and of course - even though not all comprehension is mutual - I assume that the same goes for Dutch dialect speakers and German dialects/Standard German.

I don´t care about your made up percentages, for they are based on myths. A 2003 study by the Leiden university on Dutch Intelligibility for German speakers showed that while Germans on average think they will understand 85% of a Dutch text, and 70% of spoken Dutch; the actual test results showed that Germans only understand 53% of a Dutch text and 26% of a Dutch conversation. Those are the real figures. The test further showed that there is a fine line between supposed meaning and actual meaning.

Alles klaar?

Of course, I can understand when Dutch people get angry when somebody says that Dutch is German

No you don' t.

[dunkelwald]

Perhaps my English isn't sufficient in order to express my thoughts, and that's why you might think that I said that Dutch belongs to German, and it's possible that "to draw a continuum" is not a valid expression in English, but to be honest, I thought "If you want to" and "could" (do you call forms like "could"/"would" subjunctive in English?) were expressions to denote something I don't necessarily/really agree with. It's good to know that the term "West Germanic dialect continuum" already exists. I personally coined it for myself, but as it's quite logical, I'm not too surprised that it's been a well-established notion for a couple of decades already (perhaps I even got influenced by something I read subconsciously). I didn't really call it "German dialect continuum" anyway, and if I should have done so in one post, I apologise for it, because that was never the point I wanted to make. There is a German dialect continuum without doubt, and I wanted to show that, establishing a "90%" comprehension definition, Dutch or some Dutch dialects could as well be included, as they share a "90%" comprehension with some German dialects (we can of course disagree and argue about that part, that's part of a discussion).

I am Dutch and I speak Dutch, and just because certain Low German dialect exhibit cercain traits of my language doesn´t mean I speak German. Nor does the fact that German has more speakers make it okay for you to generalize on the continuums name.

If you had read all of my post, you would have noticed that I don't think that it's okay for me to generalise on some continuum's name which German is evolved in just because it has more speakers than Dutch. I would have used comparable terminology if it had been about the Dutch classification of dialects/languages. I could as well have said "If you want to draw a continuum, you could btw include Low German (and in the next step all other German dialects) as being Dutch as well." I think it's rather clear what I want to express. Additionally, I would be happy, if the Low German/Dutch and all other kind of Germanic dialects would be preserved as good as possible which is something I mentioned before as well (yes, I spoke more generally, but that definitely was included).

Of course, I can understand when Dutch people get angry when somebody says that Dutch is German

No you don' t.

I don't know what you mean by that. Whether Germans generally can't understand something like that or whether you conclude from my texts that I personally can't. Either way, I don't think it would be right.

And I'm really curious to know what definition for their percentages the study you quoted has. I'm not arguing against their numbers here (even though I don't think right now that they contradict what I said), there's just objective curiosity how they determine the percentage.