German is 169 languages?

[Boes]

Perhaps my English isn't sufficient in order to express my thoughts, and that's why you might think that I said that Dutch belongs to German, and it's possible that "to draw a continuum" is not a valid expression in English, but to be honest, I thought "If you want to" and "could" (do you call forms like "could"/"would" subjunctive in English?) were expressions to denote something I don't necessarily/really agree with.

could meant that you consider it to be an option. I know what you said. If you meant something else by it you should have wrote that instead because your English seems perfectly fine to me.

It's good to know that the term "West Germanic dialect continuum" already exists. I personally coined it for myself, but as it's quite logical, I'm not too surprised that it's been a well-established notion for a couple of decades already (perhaps I even got influenced by something I read subconsciously). I didn't really call it "German dialect continuum" anyway, and if I should have done so in one post, I apologise for it, because that was never the point I wanted to make. There is a German dialect continuum without doubt, and I wanted to show that, establishing a "90%" comprehension definition, Dutch or some Dutch dialects could as well be included, as they share a "90%" comprehension with some German dialects (we can of course disagree and argue about that part, that's part of a discussion).

To claim 90% intelligibility is to overestimate the strenght of the continuum. Furthermore you confuse politics with linguistics. No German dialect exists.

Additionally, I would be happy, if the Low German/Dutch and all other kind of Germanic dialects would be preserved as good as possible.

Dutch has 22 million speakers. It doesn' t need to be saved.

Of course, I can understand when Dutch people get angry when somebody says that Dutch is German

No you don' t.

I don't know what you mean by that. Whether Germans generally can't understand something like that or whether you conclude from my texts that I personally can't. Either way, I don't think it would be right.

Then read it again. My point was that you don't understand why it offends Dutch people and never will for the simple reason that you' re not Dutch.

And I'm really curious to know what definition for their percentages the study you quoted has. I'm not arguing against their numbers here (even though I don't think right now that they contradict what I said), there's just objective curiosity how they determine the percentage.

It totally contradict what you claimed, how can you deny that?

[dunkelwald]

My point about the continuum was, that its end would be arbitrary. If you want to find a non-arbitrary line you would have to specify more or you could as well include Dutch or you could leave out Low German (which is accepted to be a separate language by many linguists), and that was one of my criticisms about the initial definition of the "German" dialect continuum proposed in the very first post in which 169 languages are supposed to exist. That's what "could" is supposed to express here. You could include Dutch, you could leave out Swiss German, you could include/leave out Luxembourgish, it's just arbitrary. If you want to argue that it's not arbitrary, that's fine, we can argue about that, but it needs to be clear what I meant by that comment. That was not to make Dutch some variety of German.

Additionally, I would be happy, if the Low German/Dutch and all other kind of Germanic dialects would be preserved as good as possible.

Dutch has 22 million speakers. It doesn' t need to be saved.

"Dutch" was supposed to be an attributive adjective modifying "dialects". And I doubt that any Dutch dialect has a total of 22 million speakers.

Then read it again. My point was that you don't understand why it offends Dutch people and never will for the simple reason that you' re not Dutch.

If you think so, ok. Seems you're trying to elevate some of your arguments to a level where nobody can argue against them (and not because it is too good) and they become unscientific in a way. I can understand how it feels when your language is looked down upon by some weird people who don't know anything about it. People who want to tell you that your language is nothing but a weird and wrong and bad variety of their own language. Additionally, there's the whole WW II related stuff, I do get all that. Why I might not feel as emotional about it as Dutch people, I still think I can understand what you are talking about.

To claim 90% intelligibility is to overestimate the strenght of the continuum. Furthermore you confuse politics with linguistics. No German dialect exists.

That's an interesting statement. What are you arguing in favour of now? Where I do I confuse Politics with Linguistics? I personally think that there are a lot of idiolects and every person speaks his/her own one. These idiolects are then arbitrarily grouped by people to dialects and languages. That doesn't help a lot, though. I will have to stick to some conventions and talk about dialects, especially when they exhibit certain phenomena. And you seem to believe in the existence of single languages, otherwise you couldn't put up a figure of 22 Million speakers for Dutch, and if you don't think there are dialects, you don't want to subgroup these 22 million speakers, but there will be definitely some whose language is closer to others than to yet other people, because of historical development of the language. So a dialect - as well as a single language - is in my opinion a collection of idiolects fitting to a description of some kind of language by a certain margin of error.

It totally contradict what you claimed, how can you deny that?

IIRC, I only spoke about two things. About how I feel my Dutch competences (and I won't exclude the possibility of overrating myself) and about German dialects being as close to Dutch dialects as possible. Your study refers to every kind of German people, so comprises a German average.

[linguoboy]

Another question I have is: What is 90% intelligibility.

That's a damn good question and one which, queerly, I've never come across a decent answer for. Dialectologists seem to simply take it as a given that we all have a gut feeling for what "90% intelligibility" looks like and that this feeling is roughly the same for all of us, without ever trying to define it objectively or measure it empirically. The attempts I've seen to present empirical data all seem to concentrate on wordlists, which strikes me as terribly misguided. Not least among their flaws is a focus on citation forms. Who cares if, for instance, that two varieties have identical infinitives if at the same time the most common finite forms are completely different? (I think hear of, for instance, the past tense of honā "be" in New Indo-Aryan.) It has even greater consequences for understanding if one of these forms is a "false friend", capable of being confused with another term in the other variety.

[Flipflops]

If you want to draw a continuum, you could btw include Dutch as being German as well.

Erm, no you couldn't.

Mr Dunkelwald is 100% correct! Dutch and German form a single dialect continuum.

For more information on what is a dialect continuum read here:

http://en.allexperts.com/e/d/di/dialect_continuum.htm


A dialect continuum is a range of dialects spoken across a large geographical area, differing only slightly between areas that are geographically close, and gradually decreasing in mutual intelligibility as the distances become greater.


The many dialects making up German, Dutch, Afrikaans, Low German were another example. They formed a single dialect continuum, with three recognized literary standards. Although Dutch and German are not mutually intelligible, there were transitional dialects that are, for example Limburgish, spoken in parts of the Netherlands and Belgium, and the Low Franconian dialects across the border in Germany (although Limburgish is nowadays sometimes considered a language in its own right).

Another example was the area where the river Rhine crosses the border from Germany to the Netherlands. On both sides of this border, the people living in the immediate surroundings spoke an identical language. They could understand each other without difficulty, and would even have had trouble telling just by the language whether a person from the region was from the Netherlands or from Germany. However, the Germans here called their language German, and the Dutch called their language Dutch, so in terms of sociolinguistics they were speaking different languages.

I wouldn't bother too much about what Meneer/ Mevrouw Boes thinks because he/she/it is afterall to put it bluntly Dutch! You see you can tell them nothing, they know everything! You almost get the feeling that this person invented the Dutch language and is extremely proud. (almost to the fact that it's sickning)

You see some Dutch in the Netherlands have developed a reputation for being stuborn, know it all, self-righteous and in some cases just plain rude. I have Dutch ancestors and it saddens me that after visiting the Nethelands and Germany I have to admit nowhere in Germany have I seen people push their way to the front of the queue when they ever queue in the Netherlands nor have I ever been pushed out of a train when people want to get off in a train in Germany.


And it's not just me noticing the rudness and stuborness of the Dutch more and more people on the internet are taliking about the plain rudness and stuborness of the Dutch. They say they are all so "tolerant" and friendly but it couldn't be further from the truth!

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_are_the_Dutch_so_rude


http://www.observant.unimaas.nl/default ... /art15.htm


http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... tch_a.php#


http://crossroadsmag.eu/2006/04/special ... ss-people/


http://weblogs.nrc.nl/discussion/2009/0 ... lain-rude/


http://www.execupundit.com/2006/10/rude-dutch.html


http://www.observant.unimaas.nl/default ... /art12.htm

http://static.rnw.nl/migratie/www.radio ... redirected


You get the picture.

Of course they will never admit they are rude, stubborn and self-righteous nor will they admit Dutch and German form a dialect continuum. It's not what they want to hear becuase in their eyes Dutch is unique and related to only Dutch! So don't you dare tell them anything.

[linguaholic]

Flipflops, I agree about the dialect continuum (without denying that Standard German and Standard Dutch are different languages), but that's no reason to start insulting the Dutch. Boes might have been rude and stubborn, that doesn't mean you should dig up "evidence" that that's a typically "Dutch trait" (which it isn't).

[Boes]

My point about the continuum was, that its end would be arbitrary. If you want to find a non-arbitrary line you would have to specify more or you could as well include Dutch or you could leave out Low German (which is accepted to be a separate language by many linguists), and that was one of my criticisms about the initial definition of the "German" dialect continuum proposed in the very first post in which 169 languages are supposed to exist. That's what "could" is supposed to express here. You could include Dutch, you could leave out Swiss German, you could include/leave out Luxembourgish, it's just arbitrary. If you want to argue that it's not arbitrary, that's fine, we can argue about that, but it needs to be clear what I meant by that comment. That was not to make Dutch some variety of German.

How would its ends be arbitrary? For some reason (non linguist) Germans always think they can just copy-paste Dutch onto the western flank of the continuum and be done with it.

There are nearly a dozen huge grammatical and soundshifts between Dutch and the limited amounts of Western, Northern Low Saxon dialects and the minute Middle German area in the far south of the Dutch Limburg province, around Vaals. All packed in under 3 isoglosses a few miles apart.

You need to get it straight about this 'continuum', just because people can understand each other (often barely) doesn't equal a smooth unnoticable transition.

Again, in a way this is an understandable mistake for a German to make, because though the Dutch-Low Saxon and Dutch-Middle German "continuum" (a mini 'sprachbund' is more suited though) is very abrupt and clearcut, within the Low/Middle/High German continuum the transition is indeed very smooth and the coherence between vocabulary is huge by comparison with Dutch.

Additionally, I would be happy, if the Low German/Dutch and all other kind of Germanic dialects would be preserved as good as possible.

Dutch has 22 million speakers. It doesn' t need to be saved.

"Dutch" was supposed to be an attributive adjective modifying "dialects". And I doubt that any Dutch dialect has a total of 22 million speakers.

If that is what you meant by it, then it's still wrong. Dutch isn't Low German.

Then read it again. My point was that you don't understand why it offends Dutch people and never will for the simple reason that you' re not Dutch.

If you think so, ok. Seems you're trying to elevate some of your arguments to a level where nobody can argue against them (and not because it is too good) and they become unscientific in a way. I can understand how it feels when your language is looked down upon by some weird people who don't know anything about it. People who want to tell you that your language is nothing but a weird and wrong and bad variety of their own language. Additionally, there's the whole WW II related stuff, I do get all that. Why I might not feel as emotional about it as Dutch people, I still think I can understand what you are talking about.

You 're not Dutch so you can never know how it feels. You think you can relate by 'imagining how it feels' but really, you can't. .. that's why it's called imagining.

To claim 90% intelligibility is to overestimate the strenght of the continuum. Furthermore you confuse politics with linguistics. No German dialect exists.

That's an interesting statement. What are you arguing in favour of now? Where I do I confuse Politics with Linguistics?

There are dialects in Germany, which makes them German politically, but linguistically, to call all those dialects German is a gross over-simplification

It totally contradict what you claimed, how can you deny that?

IIRC, I only spoke about two things. About how I feel my Dutch competences (and I won't exclude the possibility of overrating myself) and about German dialects being as close to Dutch dialects as possible. Your study refers to every kind of German people, so comprises a German average.

Indeed, and what does that leave us with? An average researched by a respected university and and an unfounded self-estimation (at least 40% over the research results) by a person with not even basic knowledge of Dutch. Who do you think deserves the benefit of the doubt?

If you want to draw a continuum, you could btw include Dutch as being German as well.

Erm, no you couldn't.

(Flipsflops rant)

You get no reply because;
#1 You're a troll / sock puppet.
#2 Your rant has nothing to do with what said or think.

[HerrFraeulein]

Alsjeblieft vent, even een beetje chill. Iedereen weet dat Duits de oorspronkelijke en de perfectie het meest benaderende oervorm van het Germaans is waarvan de overige Germaanse talen -met name het Nederlands!- zich zo jammerlijk hebben verwijderd. Ze zijn verworden tot miskleunen, "Untersprachen"!

[Jar-ptitsa]

Alsjeblieft vent, even een beetje chill. Iedereen weet dat Duits de oorspronkelijke en de perfectie het meest benaderende oervorm van het Germaans is waarvan de overige Germaanse talen -met name het Nederlands!- zich zo jammerlijk hebben verwijderd. Ze zijn verworden tot miskleunen, "Untersprachen"!

LOL!!! Jij bent nog steeds grappig zie ik Ben je nu klar met de studie jura? (Misschien weet je niet wie ik ben maar vroeger schreef ik hier dan niet meer maar ik vergeet waarom niet en ben terug).groetjes.

[linguoboy]

Wozu brauchen wir überhaupt ein eigenständig Niederländisch-Forum? Ihr könnt alle ruhig hier auf "Kleindeutsch" plaudern! (Mindestens bis ihr die vervollkommnete Form erwerben.)

[Jar-ptitsa]

Wozu brauchen wir überhaupt ein eigenständig Niederländisch-Forum? Ihr könnt alle ruhig hier auf "Kleindeutsch" plaudern! (Mindestens bis ihr die vervollkommnete Form erwerben.)

LOL!!!!!!! Kleindeutsch hahaha

Of Duits is Oosterburen-Nederlands?

[linguoboy]

Of Duits is Oosterburen-Nederlands?

"Hoogstnederlands", alstublieft!

[dunkelwald]

Natürlich.. Niederländisch Holländisch ist nur ein deutscher Dialekt, und Dialekte sind irgendetwas für irgendwelche ungebildeten, dummen Idioten - daher sollte sie niemand sprechen. Desweiteren ist modernes Standarddeutsch die arische Ursprache, aus der - wie jeder weiß - andere Sprachen wie z.B. Sanskrit und Spanisch hervorgegangen sind. Diese Sprachen sind aufgrund ihres Charakters aber nicht ursprünglich und daher als minderwertig und nicht erlernenswert zu betrachten.

[linguoboy]

Des schdimmt nitt, Dunkelwald! S isch s'Alemmanisch, wu d echti Urschbroch bildet! S sognannd "Hochdütsch" isch nitt meh wi ä globige abekummene Dialägd!

[Boes]

Alsjeblieft vent, even een beetje chill. Iedereen weet dat Duits de oorspronkelijke en de perfectie het meest benaderende oervorm van het Germaans is waarvan de overige Germaanse talen -met name het Nederlands!- zich zo jammerlijk hebben verwijderd. Ze zijn verworden tot miskleunen, "Untersprachen"!

Er zijn genoeg mensen die dat niet sarcastisch bedoelen maar diep van binnen, bewust of onbewust, werkelijk geloven. En dan heb ik het niet over 15 jarige Waalse meisjes of een Amerikaanse lapzwans die denkt Nederlands te kunnen.

[Jar-ptitsa]

dan heb ik het niet over 15 jarige Waalse meisjes of een Amerikaanse lapzwans die denkt Nederlands te kunnen.

Ik ben 17 jaar

[linguoboy]

En dan heb ik het niet over 15 jarige Waalse meisjes of een Amerikaanse lapzwans die denkt Nederlands te kunnen.

Hij was helemaal niet slap gisteravond toen hij in je mond was!

[Boes]

En dan heb ik het niet over 15 jarige Waalse meisjes of een Amerikaanse lapzwans die denkt Nederlands te kunnen.

Hij was helemaal niet slap gisteravond toen hij in je mond was!

Los van aan de woordvolgorde en grammatica gerelateerde en zelfs culturele fouten, even dit; een zwans in het Nederlands is hetzelfde als onzin, niet penis. Al snap ik dat je in al je enthousiastme en verstoken dromen van iets anders uit ging.

Erg volwassen trouwens.

[Grytolle]

zwans
zwans (geen afbreking)
de (m.); -en, zwanzen
(1573 ‘staart’) <Du. Schwanz (staart, penis)
1 · (gewestelijk) staart
2 · (gewestelijk) penis
3 · (gewestelijk) knoeier, prutser
3 · een rare zwans, een rare kerel
4 · (Belgisch-Nederlands, spreektaal) grap, scherts, kletspraat

Maar inderdaad heel stom gedrag

D'enige mogelijke grammaticale fout die 'k erin kan zien, is het ni-levend subject

[linguoboy]

Erg volwassen trouwens.

Dat moet jij nodig zeggen!

[Flipflops]

Then read it again. My point was that you don't understand why it offends Dutch people and never will for the simple reason that you' re not Dutch.

Ooops we are so sorry for not being Dutch, how can we possibly understand how bad it must feel to be Dutch. Funny that you moan about what 4/5 years of German invasion yet your country the Netherlands have been raping the world's resources for hundreds of years with your VOC mentality. You think we should feel sorry for you because Germany invaded your country yet you were raping Indonesians/Africans/ Suriname treating these people like worthless animals in their own country.
The last thing on my mind is to feel sorry for the Dutch!! If anything Germany just gave you back what you have been dishing out to the world for hundreds of years with your VOC mentality!!

If you want to draw a continuum, you could btw include Dutch as being German as well.

Erm, no you couldn't.

(Flipsflops rant)

You get no reply because;
#1 You're a troll / sock puppet.
#2 Your rant has nothing to do with what said or think.[/quote]


I wasn't waiting for your VOC dutch mentality reply anyway!!