Rhotizität und Deutsche Mundarten

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Kirk
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Rhotizität und Deutsche Mundarten

Postby Kirk » 2006-02-24, 4:20

I know Standard German typically vocalizes 'r' in word-final and pre-consonantal contexts, but I know some dialects of German retain some form of 'r' in such positions. In Standard German the following words would be as follows:

"sterben" [ˈʃteːɐbən]
"Tier" [tʰiːɐ]
"Herd" [heːɐtʰ]

But for those that retain 'r' there, is it typically [ʁ] or some other kind of 'r', and what areas do this?

Also, another thing: my German professor said she once lived for a little while in a German town where the local dialect had an 'r' similar to the one found in most dialects of English, /ɹ/. She said she rented a room from an older couple who spoke the local dialect and when they called her "Frau Riebling," it would stand out to her since they used [ɹ] instead of [ʁ]. I forgot the name of the place--does anyone know where this occurs?
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Re: Rhotizität und Deutsche Mundarten

Postby Saaropean » 2006-02-24, 6:21

Kirk wrote:I know Standard German typically vocalizes 'r' in word-final and pre-consonantal contexts, but I know some dialects of German retain some form of 'r' in such positions. In Standard German the following words would be as follows:

"sterben" [ˈʃteːɐbən]
"Tier" [tʰiːɐ]
"Herd" [heːɐtʰ]

I have to disappoint you. "sterben" and "Herd" are pronounced with [ɛɐ], not [eːɐ]. At least that's how I pronounce them...

Kirk wrote:But for those that retain 'r' there, is it typically [ʁ] or some other kind of 'r', and what areas do this?

I think it depends on the region. In Rhineland, it's a uvular fricative, in some regions it's an alveolar trill.

That reminds me of a Hunsrück accent I heard yesterday. There was a woman who pronounced the name "Barbara" by diphthongized the first R and trilling the second one. Sorry, off topic...

Kirk wrote:Also, another thing: my German professor said she once lived for a little while in a German town where the local dialect had an 'r' similar to the one found in most dialects of English, /ɹ/. She said she rented a room from an older couple who spoke the local dialect and when they called her "Frau Riebling," it would stand out to her since they used [ɹ] instead of [ʁ]. I forgot the name of the place--does anyone know where this occurs?

No idea...
Last edited by Saaropean on 2006-02-24, 6:26, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Rhotizität und Deutsche Mundarten

Postby Kirk » 2006-02-24, 6:24

Saaropean wrote:
Kirk wrote:I know Standard German typically vocalizes 'r' in word-final and pre-consonantal contexts, but I know some dialects of German retain some form of 'r' in such positions. In Standard German the following words would be as follows:

"sterben" [ˈʃteːɐbən]
"Tier" [tʰiːɐ]
"Herd" [heːɐtʰ]

I have to disappoint you. "sterben" and "Herd" are pronounced with [ɛɐ], not [eːɐ]. At least that's how I pronounce them...


Ooh, thanks for the correction :)

Saaropean wrote:
Kirk wrote:But for those that retain 'r' there, is it typically [ʁ] or some other kind of 'r', and what areas do this?

I think it depends on the region. In Rhineland, it's a uvular fricative, in some regions it's an alveolar trill.

That reminds me of a Hunsrück accent I heard yesterday. There was a woman who pronounced the name "Barbara" by diphthongized the first R and trilling the second one. Sorry, off topic...


Very interesting.
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby Saaropean » 2006-02-24, 6:27

By the way: There's a third way to deal with post-vocal R. In southern Hesse (Hessen) and parts of Palatinate (Pfalz), they simply drop it, pronouncing "sterben" [ˈʃdɛbə] or [ˈʃdæbə]. This even happens at the end of a word, pronouncing "Vater" [ˈfadɛ].

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Re: Rhotizität und Deutsche Mundarten

Postby Kuba » 2006-02-24, 8:23

Saaropean wrote:
Kirk wrote:"sterben" [ˈʃteːɐbən]
"Tier" [tʰiːɐ]
"Herd" [heːɐtʰ]

I have to disappoint you. "sterben" and "Herd" are pronounced with [ɛɐ], not [eːɐ]. At least that's how I pronounce them...

You're right... I'd pronounce them:
"sterben" [ˈʃtɛɐbm̩]/[ˈʃtɛɐm]
"Tier" [tʰiːɐ]
"Herd" [hɛɐt]

Kirk wrote:But for those that retain 'r' there, is it typically [ʁ] or some other kind of 'r', and what areas do this?

In Austria it would be usually an [r], but also an [ʁ] or [ʀ] can be heard. For singing and theater the rule is AFAIK that you have to retain the 'r' after schort vowels...

Saaropean wrote:That reminds me of a Hunsrück accent I heard yesterday. There was a woman who pronounced the name "Barbara" by diphthongized the first R and trilling the second one. Sorry, off topic...

Would be perfectly normal for me :D : [ˈbaːbara]...

Kirk wrote:Also, another thing: my German professor said she once lived for a little while in a German town where the local dialect had an 'r' similar to the one found in most dialects of English, /ɹ/. She said she rented a room from an older couple who spoke the local dialect and when they called her "Frau Riebling," it would stand out to her since they used [ɹ] instead of [ʁ]. I forgot the name of the place--does anyone know where this occurs?

Never heard of something like this - well, I don't think that village's located in Austria...
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Re: Rhotizität und Deutsche Mundarten

Postby Car » 2006-02-24, 9:10

Saaropean wrote:
Kirk wrote:"Herd" [heːɐtʰ]

I have to disappoint you. "sterben" and "Herd" are pronounced with [ɛɐ], not [eːɐ]. At least that's how I pronounce them...


I disagree for "Herd", Kirk's IPA is allright, it's BTW also what pons.de has. Herd with [ɛɐ] sounds southern to me.

As for the English r, I never heard of something like this either, hearing German with that r just sounds completely foreign to me.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Postby Tomcat » 2006-02-24, 13:15

The Alsatian dialects have a very hard [ʀ] in word-final and pre-consonantal positions:

"sterben": [ˈʃtaːʀvə]
"Tier" [tʰiːʀ]
"Herd" [haːʀtʰ]

[t] and [tʰ] almost sound like [d] in Alsation.
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Postby Kirk » 2006-02-24, 23:20

Tomcat wrote:The Alsatian dialects have a very hard [ʀ] in word-final and pre-consonantal positions:

"sterben": [ˈʃtaːʀvə]
"Tier" [tʰiːʀ]
"Herd" [haːʀtʰ]

[t] and [tʰ] almost sound like [d] in Alsation.


Wow, the pronunciations for those words in that dialect are strikingly close to how I pronounce the etymologically identical (if not semantically identical) words in my dialect of English:

"starve" [stɑɹv]
"deer" [dɪɹ]
"hearth" [hɑɹθ]

Car wrote:As for the English r, I never heard of something like this either, hearing German with that r just sounds completely foreign to me.


Yeah, when my professor mentioned it it sounded weird to me, too. I'll have to ask her where the place was the next time I see her.
Image
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Re: Rhotizität und Deutsche Mundarten

Postby howi » 2016-06-13, 23:12

Although this post is already ten years old I'd like to give an answer to the question about the "English R" in German language:

This "English" pronouciation of the "German R" occurs in Hessen when sort of "Hessisches Platt" is being spoken, i.e. the regional dialect. I first noticed it in the area of Wetzlar about 35 years ago when friends of mine used their "Platt" talking to each other. It sounds strange even to Germans and hardly anyone knows about this, because usually the native speakers use Hochdeutsch when talking to non-hessian Germans.

Howi

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Re: Rhotizität und Deutsche Mundarten

Postby Järvi » 2016-08-17, 10:38

(Ich möchte auch meinen Senf dazugeben :P)

I know that "Herd" is normally written as [hɛʁtʰ] but it sounds really weird to me. I'm from Rhineland and I always say [heˑɐtʰ].
Some more examples:
würzen [vʏɐ̯t͡sn̩]
Ort [ˈʔoˑɐtʰ]
Arbeit [ˈʔaːbaɪ̯tʰ]
erörtern [ʔeɐ̯ˈʔøˑɐtʰɐn]
fahren [faːɐ̯n]
[ˈmoɐgŋ̩.ɕtʊnthɐt ˈgɔltɪmʊnt | veɐˈlaŋə.ɕlɛˑft blae̟̯pt ˈʔa͜ʊx.gəzʊnt]
 (de)  (es-ar)  (en)  (fr)  (sv)  (fi)  (art)
Please correct me!


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