Learning Notes - Expugnator

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Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-06-13, 16:24

Hi people!

I've started this thread as a sort of personal blog where I will be posting my remarks, doubts tips (and typos :lol: )concerning the learning process. I don't know if such threads are allowed apart from the TAC forum, but I don't feel like participating on it, I'd rather have a personal thread within the actual forum. I think it's a more intimate environment :D

I think now I have most of the popular books for learning Georgian. I'm using primarily Beginner's Georgian by Dodona Kiziria, with some glances at Georgian: a learner's grammar - 2nd edition, which I still find very useful despite all criticisms. Wish I could take more benefits from Tschenkeli's grammar, especially its translating exercises on volume II, but it's in German.

I'm a true beginner. I know most of the letters of the alphabet plus some 50 words and a few grammar rules. I plan to update this thread about 3-4 times a week.

If anyone is interested in getting more Georgian material, including the books I mentioned, just contact me.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby Sean of the Dead » 2010-06-13, 17:41

I am also very interested in learning Georgian, so I'll be following your log. :) I have been interested in it on and off for a year or more, but always thought it was impossible to learn and horribly irregular, and while it is very foreign, and not perfectly regular, it's not nearly as hard as people make it out to be; it can be learned just fine if you put the effort into it. I'll be learning a bit over the summer (which starts in 9 days for me), since I'll have a lot of time to try out other languages.

Georgian is a language unlike any other; it sounds beautiful and awesome at the same time with all the consonant clusters. :<3: And their food is amazing! :lol: Well, good luck with your studies, and let's hope the moderator comes back soon to answer the questions we'll be having. :P
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-06-18, 23:20

So, let’s go then.

After having revised so many times Beginner’s Georgian’s Lesson 01, I still haven’t memorized all words. The long verbal forms introduced still cause some confusion. The semantical stem is surrounded by prefixes and sufixes. So, before I deal again with words such as ვლაპარაკობთ vlap’arak’obt and ცხოვროგთ tsxovrobot, I’m gonna take a turn at Tschenkeli’s Volume II and gain some vocabulary. I’ll be taking notes on the well-known, unknown and misleading words. Tschenkeli’s volume II is a totally new book compared to volume I. It basically consists on translation exercises, which have proved to be very effective for my learning before.

I can recognize almost all letters, like I said, but I still confuse ejective x non-ejective consonants, I mean, even though I can pronounce them differently, I still store them mentally as one single consonant because I don’t distinguish them in my native language. Thus, for me it’s still the same consonant articulated in the mouth the same but pronounced in two different ways, which isn’t far from truth. So i’m gonna review it once again so it helps me tell who is who:

Aspirated თ t ქ k ც ts ფ p ჩ ch
Ejective ტ t’ კ k’ წ ts’ პ p’ ჭ ch’

Some words like პროფესორი are cognates. Here’s their list for Übung zu Lektion I:

პროფესორი – professor
სტუდენტი – student
პატრონი – boss
სუპი – soup
დირეკტორი – director, school principal

Some nouns were given also in the vocative, like ბატონო! (Sir!, thus making დიახ ბატონო. = Yes, sir.). The book says that the vocative for man can be translated in German as “Hör mal”, “Mein Lieber”. I don’t quite get it, so I’d like to know what does კაცო! mean in Georgian conversation.

As for these words, I couldn’t get their meaning very well for I don’t know what the German word means either:

რვეული – (Schreibheft)
სახლის პატრონი – (Hausbesitzer = the boss of the house, but what exactly?)

I suppose რით/ი/ is the instrumental for რა, meaning “by means of what?”. But then, why does the book give the –i in brackets? Which form is correct, რით or რით?

As far as I understood, you use the adverbs = adverbial case after the non-personal adjective for speaking about languages, so ქართულად means “in Georgian”.

Next time the actual exercises are coming.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby Sean of the Dead » 2010-06-18, 23:44

Schreibheft = exercise book
Hausbistzer = homeowner

This dictionary is very good. ;)

What don't you get about verbs? "v-" is for the first person singular, and "-t" for second plural.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-06-19, 0:04

personal affixes are rather easy at this stage. What I don't get is how to memorize the vocabulary regarding verbs.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-06-19, 13:15

First I'll attempt to translate from German into Georgian, then I'll post here the correct translation from the book, later I will translate from Georgian into English, because that way I also practice my German :D
At the first lesson, there are 6 blocks of sentences to translate, sorted up by case.

Exercises

Nominative
1.მე ვარ პროფესორი.
2.თქვენ ხართ სტუდენტები.
3.ვინ ხართ თქვენ? ჩვენ ვართ სტაუდენტები.
4.ვინ ვარ მე? თქვენ ხართ ჩემი პროტესორი.
5.ვინ არიან ისინი? ისინი არიან ჩემი ამხანაგები.
6.სად ხართ თქვენ? მე ვარ აქ.
7.სად არიან ქალები? ისინი იქ არიან.
8.სად არის წიგნები? = სადაა წიგნები? ისინი აქ არის.
9. რა არის ეს? = რაა ეს? ეს არის რვეული = ეს რვეულია.

1. I am (the) professor. 2. You are students. 3. Who are you? We are students. 4. Who am I? You are our professor. 5. Who are they? They are my comrades. 6. Where are you? I am here. 7. Where are the ladies? They are there. 8. Where are [is] the books? They are [is] here. 9. What is this? This is a notebook.

Notes:
A. The professor is being adressed in the plural form, that is, the formal one.
B. The inanimate noun "book" gets the third person singular form (არის, -ა), even though it is in the plural. For animate nouns, like "the ladies", the plural form arian is used.
C. The third person singular form of "to be", when added to the word სად (where), receives an extra, euphonic ა, turning it into სადაა. If i remember correctly, this applies to one-syllable words ending in consonant, as the same won't happen to რა (what), which becomes just რაა, that is, no 3 ა's in a row.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2010-06-19, 13:40

ცხოვროგთ tsxovrobot


I think that's supposed to be ცხოვრობთ with a ბ (easy to mistake for გ) and -obt.

What I don't get is how to memorize the vocabulary regarding verbs.


Georgian verbal citation forms are a big mess. Native speakers usually use the verbal noun, but learner's books use different finite forms depending on the verb's class. Aronson for example uses the future screeve with third person arguments for classes I and II (e.g., დახატავს paint - lit. he will paint it), present screeve with third person arguments for class III (e.g., ტირის cry - lit. he cries) and present screeve with first person for the subject and third person for other arguments for class IV (e.g., მიყვარს love - lit. I love him). In the glossary Kiziria's Beginner's Georgian uses the present screeve with second person for the subject and third person for other arguments for all verbs, and the preverb is listed separately (e.g., ხატავ (და-) paint - lit. you paint it). In the lessons I think it uses the conjugated forms that occur in the text, e.g., ცხოვრობთ you (all) live. I don't know what Tschenkeli uses. I'm using Aronson's book, so I generally use his verbal citation forms, but none of these systems are really ideal for showcasing the features of the verbs. If you're using Kiziria's Beginner's Georgian, you should probably learn the verbs as they're listed in the glossary, i.e., present screeve with second person for the subject and third person for other arguments, but be careful if Tschenkeli uses different citation forms, and he probably does.

კაცო is just the vocative of man. He probably lists it in the vocative because people use it as a casual address. On page 262 Kiziria gives the example რა გინდა, კაცო? What do you want, man? So it's just like in English :)

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-06-20, 14:19

Now for the vocative. Pretty straightforward. I just read at Kiziria's that some nouns ending in -i, like ირაკლი, remain unchanged.We're still at Tschenkeli's exercises for lesson 01.

Vocative
10. აქ არის პროფესორი? დიახ ბატონო, ის ახლა აქ არის.
11. ექიმი ხართ თქვენ? არა ქალბატონო, მე ვარ სტუდენტი.
12. ბატონებო, ვინ ხართ თქვენ? ჩვენ ვართ სტუდენტები.
13. კაცო, სად არის (=სადაა) ჩემი წიგნი? შენი წიგნი აქ არის /=აქაა/.

10. Is the professor here? Yes, sir, he is still here. 11. Are you a doctor? No, lady, I'm a student. 12. Gentlemen, who are you? We are students. Man, where is my book? Your book is here.

Notes
A. Notice the word order: აქ comes first because that's what is being asked, whether the professor is here or not. Same on #11, the student is being asked whether he is a doctor, so ექიმი, doctor, comes at the very beginning of the sentence. I wonder where does the word ექიმი come from, I can't relate it to a known language.
B. SInce the vocative is demonstrated grammatically, no need for a comma between it and the rest of the sentence, so it's straight დიახ ბატონო and not დიახ, ბატონო.
C. Here's the vocative კაცო. It's indeed familiar, which can be seen by the singular form შენი being used.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-06-22, 8:49

Today it was the time for dative/accusative case, which in Georgian receives the same ending. I don’t have much trouble distinguishing accusative from dative in their most common usages, but since they’re treated as one single case in Georgian, I won’t complain about what seems easier in Georgian than in languages such as Russian.

Dative/Accusative

14. მე ვწერ წერილს.
15. რას წერს ის? ის წერს წერილებს.
16. რას ჭან შენ? მე ვჭან ვაშლს.
17. წერილს წერს ის ახლა? არა ბატონო, ის წერს ახლა გაკვეთილს.
18. ვის აძლევს სტუდენტი წიგნს? ის აძლევს წიგნს ამხამაგს.

14. I write a letter. 15. What does he write? He writes letters. 16. What do you eat? I eat an apple. 17. Is he writing a letter now? No, sir, he is writing an exercise now. 18. To whom does the student give the book? He gives the book to a comrade.

Notes:

A. The dative/accusative is formed by removing the final nominative ending (-ი) and adding an -ს. That makes it into an excellent opportunity for training your pronunciation of several consonants in a row, in words such as წერილს, letter.
B. The nominative plural form -ები also loses the final -ი, thus making წერილებს, letters.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-07-09, 20:59

After a long gap, I’m still at Tschenkeli’s Einführung in die Georgische Sprache, lesson 01. Now it’s time for the genitive case.

Genitive

19. ეინ არის ის კაცი? = ეინაა ის კაცი? ის არის სახლის პატრომი.
20. სტუდენტის წიგმია ეს? არა ბატონო, ეს არის პროფესორის წიგნი.
21. ვისი შვილი არიან ისინი? ეს არის პროფესორის ვაჟიშვილი, ის კი სახლის პატრონის ქალიშვილი.
22. ვისია ეს წიგნები? ეს არის პროფესორების წიგნები = ეს პროფესორების წიგნებია.

19. Who is this man? He is the homeowner. 20. Is this the student’s book? No, sir, this is the professor’s book. 21. Whose children are these? This is the professor’s son, and that is the homeowner’s daughter. 22. Who are these books? These are the professor’s books.

Notes:

A. Notice that the third person pronoun comes from demonstrative pronoun. Thus, while “this man” is ის კაცი, “he" is just ის. Looks like it was just the noun that had been deleted, but it’s actually the personal pronoun and the demonstrative that are the same.
B. Genitive case ending is -ის, while dative/accusative was a plain -ს, if I’m not mistaken. Anyways, it’s hard to mistake one function for another within a sentence. The genitive case marks the noun’s complement, while the dative/accusative marks a noun that complements the action of a verb.
C. Notice the word order at სტუდენტის წიგმია ეს? = Student’s book-is this? The noun in the genitive comes first, then the subject receives the copula attachment –ა, then the linking demonstrative.
D. Could I have written “არა ბატონო, ეს პროფესორის წიგნია” as well?
E. “Whose” is conveyed ვისი, genitive for ეინ.
F. კი seems to me like an alternative conjunction, roughly like а in Russian. I did get what it means, though I can’t exactly explain.
G. სახლის პატრონის ქალიშვილი = house’s owner’s daughter = the daughter of the owner of the house. A normal, synthetic genitive word order, which is the opposite of the analytic word order.
H. Again, inanimate plural nouns don’t get the plural verbal form, just the singular არის.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-07-11, 14:35

Now it’s time for the instrumental case. With this and adverbial coming next, I'll finish Tschenkeli's lesson 01 and then go for a (longer) lesson at Hewitt's.


Instrumental

23. რით /ი/ წერს პროფესორი? ის წერს ცარცით.
24.ჩვენ ვჭამთ სუფს კოვზით.
25.რას ჭამთ თქვენ ახლა? მე ვჭამ პურს კარაქით.

23. With what does the professor write? He writes with chalk. We eat soup with a spoon. What do you eat? I eat bread with butter.

Note:

A. I don’t get why there’s a dashed -ი. Does that mean we can say either რით or რითი?
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-07-14, 0:18

Finally, the adverbial case. Its most evident use for a beginner is for saying you speak in a given language.

Adverbial

26. ის აქ არის დირეტორად.
27. როგორ წერს ის? ის წერს კარგად.
28. კარგად წერთ თქვენ ქართულად? არა ბატონო, მე ვწერ ქართულად ჯერ კიდევ ცუდად.

26. He is here as director. 27. How does he write? He writes well. 28. Do you write well in Georgian? No, sir, I still write Georgian badly so far.

Note:

A. This word დირეტორი seems an exception to the rule. The –k is the aspirated one ქ, just followed by the ejective t, ტ
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-09-26, 20:25

Google Translator combined with OCR software have helped me wonders, so now I've become able to follow both Tschenkeli lessons (not just the exercises) and Tsibashvili course. Since Tschenkeli is not split through difficult level, but just through parts of speech, I'll be focusing on Tsibashvili. Right now I have to go through the same basic assumptions again (that Georgian has no grammatical gender, no capital letters), but once that level is completed again, I plan to move much faster.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby Iselin » 2010-10-07, 20:41

Very interesting to read your learning notes!

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-10-23, 23:20

Hehe takk for kompliment.

Time to resume writing here. I did some learning the week before, none this week, and now I have a less pushy goal: learn 5 new words each day/write 1 short text before December 31st.

I'll be gathering these words through different sources: the books I study, wikipedia articles in well-known subjects, news sites, songs. I'll be posting the word here with translation. If i feel comfortable enough, I'll write a short sentence with it. Let's go:

Today I'm going to do it in a spiritualist way. I'm going to open pages from Beginner's Georgian by chance. Let's see what the Universe has reserved! :silly: :hmm:

1. წელი - YEAR. Actually I saw it as ერთი წლით/For a year. IS it supposed to be the instrumental case, with syncope?

2. ძალიან - VERY. As in ძალიან სასიამოვნოა = very nice-is , which corresponds to "Nice to meet you" or "It's a pleasure".

Code: Select all

Now a doubt has arisen: how do you make "non-subject" sentences in Georgian? I mean, "It's raining" and such. Do you need a demonstrative, ეს or ის, just like the English "it"?


3. რაპარაკობ - SPEAK. As in მე ვლაპარაკობ პორტუგალიურად. (Suposed to be "I speak Portuguese").

4. მგზავრი - PASSENGER. მგზავრები seems to be a Georgian group. I'd love to know more about them! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKRCUYH92xA

5. ცარიელი - EMPTY. Can I say "ჩემი ჭიქა ცარიელია" as "My glass is empty"?



Summary:

1. წელი - YEAR.
2. ძალიან - VERY.
3. რაპარაკობ - SPEAK.
4. მგზავრი - PASSENGER.
5. ცარიელი - EMPTY.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-10-30, 21:33

Still on the 5-words-a-day, I'm going to make it 4 or 6 temporarily. My source is Natadze's САМОУЧИТЕЛЬ ГРУЗИНСКОГО ЯЗЫКА, on page 5, that contains a useful list with contrasting ejective/aspirated consonants. Here we go:

კარი - DOOR. (ejective k')
ქარი - WIND. (aspirated k)

კუდი - TAIL. (ejective k')
ქუდი - HAT. {aspirated k)
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2010-11-07, 16:31

ტარი - HANDLE.
თარი - THARI (musical instrument)
ტარო - EAR.
თარო - SHELF.

Since i'm cross-translating with Russian, I'm not sure these translations are correct. The fact they're given out of a context also makes it difficult.
Learning Georgian, Mandarin Chinese, Russian and Papiamentu from scratch. Trying to brush up my Norwegian up to an advanced level.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-07-19, 20:04

Since January I've been learning Georgian actively and regularly. I've recorded my logs at HTLAL, Georgian Notes, Doubts and Tips . There used to be more activity there but things slowed down a bit. I'd really like to meet other learners and discuss Georgian together, I am learning rather slowly. For example now I'm using a book that has no translation for the dialogues.

Is there anyone out there learning Georgian actively? księżycowy , I know you're at Chechen right now, but do you know of anyone?
Learning Georgian, Mandarin Chinese, Russian and Papiamentu from scratch. Trying to brush up my Norwegian up to an advanced level.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby księżycowy » 2012-07-19, 22:01

E}{pugnator wrote:Is there anyone out there learning Georgian actively? księżycowy , I know you're at Chechen right now, but do you know of anyone?

Nope, I don't know anyone that's studying it right now. Sorry.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-07-25, 23:47

I've been actively studying Georgian since, I think, 2009. At the moment I'm reading Aronson and Kiziria's Georgian Language and Culture, a Continuing Course. I have Hewitt's book and a few others, but I'm really just following Aronson - I read the first book, so I might as well continue with the second.

"რა სპეციალობის?" (Which medical specialty)

I don't get why this form has a final -ს


What's the preceding sentence? It looks like a follow-up question.

ბავშვთა ექიმი

Is this also a reminiscent of a former genitive?


I would assume it means "pediatrician" (lit. doctor of children).

What does this sentence mean?
დედა შემოვიდა თუ არა, ტანსაცმელი გაიხადა, დაწვა და იმ წუთში დაიძინა.


"As soon as mother entered [the room], she took off her clothes, went to bed and fell asleep in that instant."

How to use the word განა?


It's an interrogative particle. A Continuing Course talks about it on page 445 and suggests translating it as "really ... isn't it?"

(affirmative sentence)
გაკვეთილები უკვე დაამთავრე განა?
You didn't really finish the lessons, did you?

(negative sentence)
განა ბებერი ცხენი ქერს არ სჭამს?
An old horse does eat barley, doesn't it?

Dunwoody defines it as:
[A]n emotive particle indicating a mood of wonderment or questioning on the part of the speaker.
განა სხვაგან არის სადმე ასეთი ქვეყანა?
Is it possible that there is any such country anywhere?


I just came across the form მივდიოდი, is it still used or should I just skip it?


Why wouldn't it be used? Aronson has an example on page 447 (paragraph 14): კიბებზე უხალისოდ ავდიოდი. I was walking up the stairs without joy.

It's hard to find people to study Georgian with, isn't it? I barely check this forum any more since there's so little traffic. :)


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