Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

HoneyBuzzard
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2016-05-03, 20:33

A Continuing Course has a nice example of the prefixed and unprefixed imperatives:
ბევრი წყალი უნდა სვა. 'You should drink a lot of water [in general].'
ეს ჭიქა უნდა დალიო. 'You must drink this glass [now, once].'

This is similar to the way perfective and imperfective imperatives are used in Slavic languages and the present and aorist imperatives in Greek, and I think it captures the nuance nicely. The second sentence could be phrased "those books would be translated from Greek," i.e., it's not referring to a specific action of translation, as with the book in the first example, but rather the general nature of the translation effort.

I can never get used to aspect though, my mind always goes back to time. :hmm:

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby interesting_username » 2016-05-11, 19:32

I think I get it, thanks.

You mentioned the "Continuing Course" book--could you give a little review of it, perhaps, either in this thread or by making a new one when you get the chance? Could you specifically address how it fits in with the "Reading Grammar" with regards to level? Meaning, if one gets through the "Reading Grammar," does the "Continuing Course" book pick up right where it left off, or is it not quite that neat?
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2016-05-15, 1:30

It picks up perfectly in my opinion, but the format going forward is very different. Instead of having individual chapters with grammar points and exercises, it starts off with three big sections of dialogues, prose and then poetry. There are translations for the prose and poetry but not the dialogues (there are footnotes all along the way through). The grammar section doesn't start until page 337, and it takes the form of a reference grammar, so rather than being separated into chapters it consists of sections like "cases" and "screeves."

Reading Grammar is pretty exhaustive, so there isn't much new in the way of grammar in the book. Mostly it functions as a reader to give a smooth passage into reading real Georgian texts and I think it does a good job at it.

It doesn't feel as polished as Reading Grammar though. I don't know if that's because it has only had one edition or because it was co-written with Dodona Kiziria. For example, some of the footnotes skip over things that really should have been commented on, and on one page there's suddenly an English sentence written in Mkhedruli. They apparently forgot to switch back to a Latin input method.

But yeah, I'd say it's the ideal place to go after Reading Grammar. Besides it's the only intermediary Georgian grammar in Englsih as far as I know, all the other books are beginner's.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby interesting_username » 2016-05-15, 6:43

I see. So it's more a chrestomathy than anything else. "A Reading Grammar" is pretty exhaustive though, you say? That's good to hear; I'm officially halfway through now and was wondering how far the book would take me.

Ignoring speaking and writing, since the book doesn't focus on either, what level do you estimate "A Reading Grammar" brings you up to in terms of reading comprehension, using the CEFR guidelines? Have you used any non-English texts post-"A Reading Grammar"? I've seen your posts regarding Georgian going back quite a few years, so I'm sure you're advanced by now and have had to look far and wide for good instructional materials.
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2016-05-16, 18:50

Hmm, level B, I suppose. Already by the end of Reading Grammar almost all the grammar has been exhausted, and what's left is more an issue of vocabulary and usage patterns. You could probably go straight to newspapers and prose if you had a proper dictionary. There are issues that are never addressed in Reading Grammar (or ACC for that matter), e.g., it never addresses what to do if a relative transitive verb has a direct object that isn't third person, and I remember I made a post about it somewhere around here, but you get used to these things pretty quickly when you actually start reading real texts.

I haven't used any non-English books for Georgian, but back when I was getting started, I remember reading all the best books were in Russian, which I guess makes sense. I have read a few technical books after ACC, like Alice Harris's Georgian Syntax, but for a few years now I've just been reading real-world texts to build vocabulary and get a feel for what sounds natural in Georgian. At some point it always comes down to practice, I think.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby interesting_username » 2016-05-17, 9:03

Great, thanks for the thorough answer. Now I'll get back to asking about grammar.

This is kind of an arcane question but I feel compelled to ask it just the same. In chapter 8 of ARG, question #5 uses the word ატირა (s/he made him/her cry). I understand that ატირებს is the causative of the III conj. verb ტირის/იტირებს. In question #6 we encounter ატირდა, which I understand is the imperfect of the prefixed version of the verb, not the one with the prevowel (i.e. a+tir-d-eb-s in #6 vs. a-tir-eb-s in #5), the difference in meaning being the starting of something versus the causative (to start crying vs. to make s.o. cry). It's the following I don't get.

In #7 we see the sentence წყალი აადუღეთ, გთხოვთ. აადუღეთ is the 2nd p. pl. aorist (=imperative) of აადუღებს. So the sentence is translated as "Bring the water to a boil, please." Ok, but why not just say წყალი ადუღეთ, გთხოვთ.

Also, just to recap, are these correct?

(III) გუღს/იდუღებს - to boil (intrans.)
(I) ადუღებს - to boil something
(I) აადუღებს - to bring something to a boil
(II) ადუღდება - to start boiling/will start boiling
(II) აადუღდება - to be brought to a boil

I'm especially unsure of that last one, აადუღდება. I don't know how to say "in 5 minutes (i.e. after 5 minutes have elapsed)," but would you be able to say something like, "In 5 minutes წყალი აადუღდება," meaning "in 5 minutes the water will be brought to a boil"?

I guess my English-speaking brain isn't seeing a ton of semantic distinction between some of these, like წყალი ადუღეთ and წყალი აადუღეთ, or წყალი ადუღდება (the water will start boiling) vs. წყალი აადუღდება (the water will be brought to a boil).
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2016-05-18, 21:18

As far as I know, the last one isn't a valid form at all. I did find a few examples, but few enough that they could have been errors. Inchoatives in -დ don't take preradical vowels except to mark indirect objects.

The other forms show every possible combination of +/- causative and +/- inchoative:


Non-inchoativeInchoative
Non-causativeდუღს it boilsდუღდება it begins to boil
Causativeადუღებს he boils itაადუღებს he makes it begin to boil


I can't think of a good way to show the difference between the inchoative and non-inchoative forms of *დუღ, but look at something like:

ღრუბლები ცას აბნელებს clouds darken the sky (so we should stay inside)
ღრუბლები ცას ააბნელებს clouds begin to darken the sky (so we should get inside)

The difference between წყალი ადუღეთ and წყალი აადუღეთ would be something like "boil the water (and let it cool down to sterilize it)" and "make the water begin to boil (and then we can put the potatoes in)."

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby interesting_username » 2016-05-19, 4:24

Thanks. Was დუღდება it begins to boil a typo? As per chapter 8 in the Reading Grammar:

8.3.3. Causatives of I. conj. verbs prefixed with a+.

Causatives of I. conjugation verbs prefixed with a+ (see note 4 above) can have II. conjugation derivations (II. conjugation in –d–; see 3.1.2) which have the meaning of a change of state, normally, equivalent to English ‘begin to ...’, ‘start ...–ing’. The regular II. conjugation in –d– forms corresponding to the transitive I. conjugation forms above (8.3.2) are:

ამღერდება will begin to sing (a+mǧer–d–eb–a)
ალაპარაკდება will start speaking
ადუღდება will start boiling
ატირდება will start to cry; burst into tears

Shouldn't "it begins to boil" be ა+დუღ-დ-ებ-ა then?
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2016-05-20, 0:15

The Georgian Verb: A Morphosyntactic Analysis lists these verbs as having ა= (but doesn't list *მღერ), and Apridonidze's dictionary lists დუღდება, aor. ადუღდა. It's been a few years since I read RG, but my guess would be he specified a+mǧer–d–eb–a to single it out as having ა+ while the others use ა= as expected from denominatives. Since the -დ- is already inchoative, spreakers probably feel the ა+ from the class I verb is redundant except to form the perfective stems.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby E}{pugnator » 2016-06-19, 12:33

Great discussion going on here! Just a reminder that the best grammar/textbook IMHO is in German, Tschenkéli's Einführung in die georgische Sprachen. Also, we have more recent books in German such as Lehrbuch der georgische Sprachen and a reference grammar that combines old and modern Georgian in over 1K pages.
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2016-06-19, 19:48

What's the last one called? I recently started studying German myself (mostly for practical reasons), and I'm looking forward to getting access to all these German works that don't have English translations. I'd love to see a thorough reference grammar for Georgian.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby E}{pugnator » 2016-07-04, 1:37

HoneyBuzzard wrote:What's the last one called? I recently started studying German myself (mostly for practical reasons), and I'm looking forward to getting access to all these German works that don't have English translations. I'd love to see a thorough reference grammar for Georgian.


Heinz Fähnrich 's Die georgische Sprache, I think it was mentioned here before.
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2016-07-04, 18:57

Ah, yes, the name seems familiar. I'll have that to look forward to.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Chechenboy » 2016-07-10, 13:43

გამარჯობათ
მე აქ აზალი ვარ და ვსწავლობ ქართული ენა, ლექსიკონიდან და წიგნებიდან.
ქართულად როგორ იქნება:

1. to ask (I ask, I asked, I will ask)

2. They have / They had (მათ ჰყავთ / იმათ ჰყავდათ)


Why do we sometimes have "მათ" and sometimes "იმათ"?

დიდი გმადლობთ

HoneyBuzzard
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2016-07-12, 19:55

1. to ask (I ask, I asked, I will ask)

ვკითხულობ, ვიკითხე, ვიკითხავ

2. They have / They had (მათ ჰყავთ / იმათ ჰყავდათ)

This is correct, and there is no difference between მათ and იმათ, it's just a shorter form.

1. to ask

It depends a bit on the circumstances. Usually an optative is used where English would have an infinitive, as in the sentences below, but it can also be a verbal noun or a future participle in the adverbial case (or in Old Georgian a verbal noun in the adverbial case).

2. I want to ask you

მინდა გიკითხო. This has the optative, I-want that-I-ask-you.

2. I need to talk to you

უნდა გელაპარაკო must-be that-I-talk with-you.

One more question:
Is there any section in this forum (or on any other site you might know about) for a free chat in Georgian ?


I'm afraid not. The place is a little deserted, and we don't have any fluent speakers at all at the moment. It would be pretty cool, but I don't think anyone here right now could reliably do it. The current crew mostly just reads it. :)

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Chechenboy » 2016-07-13, 18:35

Thank you, kind person.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby E}{pugnator » 2016-08-18, 15:29

How is ჩემდა გასაკვირად formed? Adverbial case? Inserted და conjunction? Genitive?

I see it quite often as a topic opener in novels: "To my surprise,...".
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2016-08-26, 16:25

Apridonidze says "adverbial sx to personal pronouns towards: სალამი შენდა Greetings to you!; 4 OG with; towards," but I've also seen it in old Georgian as a regular dative case.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby totempoleman » 2016-09-06, 16:59

How do you create second conjugation versions of verbs that have different present and future forms in first conjugation?

ex. to see - ნახავს // ხედავს

HoneyBuzzard
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2016-09-27, 20:50

totempoleman wrote:How do you create second conjugation versions of verbs that have different present and future forms in first conjugation?

ex. to see - ნახავს // ხედავს


Usually both. The thing is that these were all originally separate verbs, and then when the perfective/imperfective system developed, some verbs aligned like this into systems of suppletion. In this case both roots have class II forms but with a different meaning, which says something about the basic meaning of the roots, e.g., *ნახ has things like ინახება "be found", and *ხედ has იხედება "look out on." You just kind of have to learn it from verb to verb.


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