Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Earwig
Posts: 38
Joined: 2015-04-20, 22:26

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Earwig » 2016-12-18, 7:44

Hello,
I've recently started to study Georgian, and I'm completely befuddled by the object agreement affixes. Hewitt tells me that the 1P-subject and 2P object affix is გ-, so why is 'I love you' 'მიყვარხარ'? I presume that this is because 'ყვარ' is a 4th conjugation verb, and the subject and object cases are reversed, but I can't find any tables that make this clear. Also, what are the rules for which pre-radical vowel to use? Hewitt is extremely confusing and Kiziria elegantly side-steps the issue by not including any such sentences in her book.

Would it be possible for someone to post examples of all the possible permutations for direct objects for all four classes of (regular) verb in the present tense? (Including the ones that are the same for different subjects and objects; e.g. I see you, I see him, I see them, you see me, you see him, you see us, you see them, he sees me, he sees you......I like you, I like him, I like them, you like me, etc.)

I apologise for such an elementary question, but I'm really struggling to get my head around what the rules actually are.

Many thanks!

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 427
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2016-12-23, 16:22

Well, there's a reason for the confusion. A good third of Aronson's book is devoted to getting all this sorted out, there's no simple way to set it up. You also have to distinguish between direct objects and indirect objects / inverse subjects. The four verbal classes are also mostly a scholarly convention, you can analyze the system as having more classes.

The underlying object markers are:




sg. pl.
1. გვ
2. გ- -თ
3. Ø/ს/ჰ Ø/ს/ჰ -თ


As direct object markers the third person is always Ø- for both numbers.

As indirect object markers the third person plural is only -თ when the referent outranks a third person subject in class II (usually with an inanimate subject and animate indirect object; often these verbs only ever occur with an inanimate third person subject).

The third person singular markers also sometimes occur even though the verb doesn't have an indirect object.

Ø/ს/ჰ varies on the following sound; გ, ქ, კ, ყ and ფ have ჰ-, affricates and dental stops have ს-, vowels and the rest of the consonants have Ø.

The preradical vowels don't change in accordance with objects, but they can change in accordance with indirect objects and inverse subjects. In the first series it's always უ in the third person and ი elsewhere for class I, III and IV verbs, ე- for class II. Non-neutral preradical vowels like the locative version retain the original vowel, ვაწერ I write it on it.

Plural -თ overwrites singular -ს (including at the end of other suffixes, e.g., class I conjunctive -დეს + თ > -დეთ), and all plural suffixes overwrite plural -თ (like present screeve -ენ and aorist -ეს). The plural -თ in class IV subjects may not be marked with singular first and second person direct objects.

Singular ვ- can elide before preradical vowel უ- but usually doesn't.

----

Class I w. direct object
ხედავს sb. sees sb./sth.
E.g., მხედავთ you all see me





subj./d. obj. 1 sg. 1 pl. 2 sg. 2 pl. 3.
1 sg. - - გხედავ გხედავთ ვხედავ
1 pl. - - გხედავთ გხედავთ ვხედავთ
2 sg. მხედავ გვხედავ - - ხედავ
2 pl. მხედავთ გვხედავთ - - ხედავთ
3 sg. მხედავს გვხედავს გხედავს გხედავთ ხედავს
3 pl. მხედავენ გვხედავენ გხედავენ გხედავენ ხედავენ

----

Class I w. indirect object
უხედავს sb. sees sb.'s sth.
E.g., გიხედავთ წიგნებს we see your (sg.) books/I see your (pl.) books/we see your (pl.) books/he sees your (pl.) books






subj./id. obj. 1 sg. 1 pl. 2 sg. 2 pl. 3.
1 sg. - - გიხედავ გიხედავთ (ვ)უხედავ
1 pl. - - გიხედავთ გიხედავთ (ვ)უხედავთ
2 sg. მიხედავ გვიხედავ - - უხედავ
2 pl. მიხედავთ გვიხედავთ - - უხედავთ
3 sg. მიხედავს გვიხედავს გიხედავს გიხედავთ უხედავს
3 pl. მიხედავენ გვიხედავენ გიხედავენ გიხედავენ უხედავენ

----

Class II w. indirect object
ენახება sb.'s sth. is preserved
E.g., სახლი ძმებს ენახება(თ) the brothers' house is preserved (usually without the -თ; come to think of it I'm not sure if this particular verb ever occurs with first or second person subjects, but that's also what makes it a good candidate for allowing plural -თ of the indirect object, which would otherwise be blocked by the animacy of the subject)






subj./id. obj. 1 sg. 1 pl. 2 sg. 2 pl. 3. sg. 3. pl.
1 sg. - - გენახები გენახებით ვენახები ვენახები
1 pl. - - გენახებით გენახებით ვენახებით ვენახებით
2 sg. მენახები გვენახები - - ენახები ენახები
2 pl. მენახებით გვენახებით - - ენახებით ენახებით
3 sg. მენახება გვენახება გენახება გენახებათ ენახება ენახება(თ)
3 pl. მენახებიან გვენახებიან გენახებიან გენახებიან ენახებიან ენახებიან

----

Class III is structurally the same as class I.

----

Class IV w. direct object
უყვარს sb. loves sb./sth.






subj./obj. 1 sg. 1 pl. 2 sg. 2 pl. 3. sg. 3. pl.
1 sg. - - მიყვარხარ მიყვარხართ მიყვარს მიყვარს
1 pl. - - გვიყვარხარ გვიყვარხართ გვიყვარს გვიყვარს
2 sg. გიყვარვარ გიყვარვართ - - გიყვარს გიყვარს
2 pl. გიყვარვართ გიყვარვართ - - გიყვართ გიყვართ
3 sg. (ვ)უყვარვარ (ვ)უყვარვართ უყვარხარ უყვარხართ უყვარს უყვარს
3 pl. (ვ)უყვარვარ(თ) (ვ)უყვარვართ უყვარხარ(თ) უყვარხართ უყვართ უყვართ


----

(These are big tables, so let me know if anything looks weird, I may have made a typo.)

And then you also get things like stems suppletive for number of the direct object, verbs with -მო- infix in the first and second person, archaic, dialectal and poetic plural infix -ნ- in class I aorist verbs, etc. This probably isn't any less confusing than Hewitt, but maybe you can use the tables for something.

Earwig
Posts: 38
Joined: 2015-04-20, 22:26

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Earwig » 2017-02-02, 4:52

HoneyBuzzard, thank you very much for your detailed reply. I appreciate it greatly. My apologies for not having responded sooner, but I've been very busy of late.
The tables are certainly less confusing than Hewitt, as he likes to bury most of his information in prose. It is refreshing to see various things I thought were the case (through agonised re-reading) spelt out in plain English.

Kavkaz
Posts: 110
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-04-16, 4:34

I have a few questions, გთხოვთ.

1) If there is a preradical vowel (let's say -ა-) for a I. conjugation verb that takes the -ჰ/ს- indirect object marker, does it get deleted before the markers are added (making it PVb-მ-ROOT-ending, PVb-გვ-ROOT-ending, PVb-გ-ROOT-ending, etc.), or is it retained (making it PVb-მა-ROOT-ending, PVb-გვა-ROOT-ending, PVb-გა-ROOT-ending, etc.)? I don't think Aronson addressed this, at least not by the end of chapter 7. It doesn't appear he gave any examples of these in the exercises, either; all the -ჰ/ს- series examples don't have PRVs it seems.

2) What is with the -ე- in this verb, მოგვეცი? Here is the sentence it comes from: გასაღებები, რომლებიც დედაშენმა მოგცა, მოგვეცი, გთხოვ! From context, I could tell it was the imperative "give to us!" but I'm not sure why it isn't *მოგვცი, since the aorist root of "to give" is -ც- according to Aronson's lesson 7 vocabulary list. I'm assuming the -ე- is not part of the root, but at the same time the only time I've yet seen a preradical vowel -ე- is for II. conjugation verbs, which as far as I know "to give" is not.

3) What is with the -ე- in this verb, მივსცეთ? It comes from the sentence: ამ საწყალ ხალხს ფული მივსცეთ! Once again, context tells me that this is the 1st person plural optative, with the meaning "let's [do something]!" but I don't know why it ends in -ეთ and not -ოთ. I thought the optative endings for I. conjugation verbs were -ო(თ), -ოს, -ონ and for II. conjugation -ე(თ), -ეს, -ენ. So why does this I. conjugation verb "to give to s.o." have what seems to be a II. conjugation optative ending?

Thanks in advance, I know these are tedious questions.
Native:  (en-us)
Intermediate:  (ru)
Beginner:  (ka)
Interested:  (ab) (ce) (inh) (kbd) (av)

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 427
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-04-16, 18:55

interesting_username wrote:1) If there is a preradical vowel (let's say -ა-) for a I. conjugation verb that takes the -ჰ/ს- indirect object marker, does it get deleted before the markers are added (making it PVb-მ-ROOT-ending, PVb-გვ-ROOT-ending, PVb-გ-ROOT-ending, etc.), or is it retained (making it PVb-მა-ROOT-ending, PVb-გვა-ROOT-ending, PVb-გა-ROOT-ending, etc.)? I don't think Aronson addressed this, at least not by the end of chapter 7. It doesn't appear he gave any examples of these in the exercises, either; all the -ჰ/ს- series examples don't have PRVs it seems.


They can't co-occur at all. Georgian, like some other languages, has a rule that a verb with both a direct object and an indirect object must have the direct object in the third person. Any of the markers here will have to be either a direct object marker with no indirect object, or an indirect object marker with a third person direct object.

If these conditions aren't satisfied, the direct object undergoes what Alice Harris calls "object camouflage" in Georgian Syntax, where the word becomes a genitive adjunct of თავი, which always counts as third person singular, e.g., ვინც ჩემი თავი გადმოგცა "[the one] who delivered me to you." Here ჩემი თავი is the (camouflaged) direct object, and thus unmarked on the verb, and the indirect object is second person singular (გად-მო--ც-ა).

Aronson never really explains this, I think, in practical terms you rarely see it anyway.

interesting_username wrote:2) What is with the -ე- in this verb, მოგვეცი? Here is the sentence it comes from: გასაღებები, რომლებიც დედაშენმა მოგცა, მოგვეცი, გთხოვ! From context, I could tell it was the imperative "give to us!" but I'm not sure why it isn't *მოგვცი, since the aorist root of "to give" is -ც- according to Aronson's lesson 7 vocabulary list. I'm assuming the -ე- is not part of the root, but at the same time the only time I've yet seen a preradical vowel -ე- is for II. conjugation verbs, which as far as I know "to give" is not.


It should be explained in §7.3.4, the stem in the aorist first and second person is -ეც-, third person -ც-.

There are some class I verbs with preradical vowel -ე- though, e.g., დაეძებს "search for sth." It's not common.

interesting_username wrote:3) What is with the -ე- in this verb, მივსცეთ? It comes from the sentence: ამ საწყალ ხალხს ფული მივსცეთ! Once again, context tells me that this is the 1st person plural optative, with the meaning "let's [do something]!" but I don't know why it ends in -ეთ and not -ოთ. I thought the optative endings for I. conjugation verbs were -ო(თ), -ოს, -ონ and for II. conjugation -ე(თ), -ეს, -ენ. So why does this I. conjugation verb "to give to s.o." have what seems to be a II. conjugation optative ending?


That should also be in §7.3.4, "give" uses the strong optative endings in -ე (as an irregularity).

Vowelless roots usually use strong endings, but class I has its own series of strong endings, -ა, -ას, -ან, which are introduced in chapters eight and nine.

Kavkaz
Posts: 110
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-04-16, 23:04

Thanks HoneyBuzzard, I can't believe I didn't think to go back and look through the chapter when going through the exercises to find the answer to my two questions about the verb "to give to s.o.".

Now that I've re-read that section, I have another question (related to the first one I asked about ჰ-series verbs, actually). Aronson says in the section you mentioned: The stem of this verb changes depending upon the series. In the present series, forms are based on 3sg. present აძლევს a–đlev–s (with h–series indirect object markers). In the future series the forms are based on 3sg. future მისცემს mi+s–cem–s. With first or second person indirect objects the preverb is mo+, e.g., მომცემ ‘you will give it to me’.

So if the 3sg. present is ა-ძლევ-ს, and it's a ჰ-series verb, what happens to that ა- preradical vowel? Is the conjugation below correct then?

მაძლევ (you are giving it to me)
გვაძლევ (you are giving it to us)
გაძლევ (I am giving it to you)
გაძლევთ (I am giving it to you all/we are giving it to you/he is giving it to you all)
ვაძლევ (I am giving it to him/her/it)
ვაძლევთ (we are giving it to him/her/it)
etc.

Given the large number of results when I google the above words, my assumption is they're correct.
Native:  (en-us)
Intermediate:  (ru)
Beginner:  (ka)
Interested:  (ab) (ce) (inh) (kbd) (av)

Kavkaz
Posts: 110
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-04-18, 17:54

Another question while I'm at it...

Why is it ვპასუხობ (relative III conj., 1st person sing. subject and 3rd person sing. id.o.) and not ვჰპასუხობ? In chapter 7 Aronson said (a) ვ and ჰ can coexist, i.e. one doesn't eclipse the other, and (b) ჰ precedes პ (as opposed to ს or null). He gave ვჰკითხულობ as an example of the ვჰCONS phenomenon. Does the ჰ just disappear out of convenience? If so, is it still technically correct to say ვჰპასუხობ?

I wish there was a more active community for Georgian learners, but I guess we're few and far between. I feel guilty asking all these questions.
Native:  (en-us)
Intermediate:  (ru)
Beginner:  (ka)
Interested:  (ab) (ce) (inh) (kbd) (av)

HoneyBuzzard
Posts: 427
Joined: 2009-04-18, 11:08

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2017-04-19, 23:02

No, it's fine, I'm glad to see some action in here for once. You're right, it is very quiet.

Kavkaz wrote:So if the 3sg. present is ა-ძლევ-ს, and it's a ჰ-series verb, what happens to that ა- preradical vowel? Is the conjugation below correct then?


Yes, it just drops out. It only applies to the ჰ/ს marker, so the others are fine.

Kavkaz wrote:Another question while I'm at it...

Why is it ვპასუხობ (relative III conj., 1st person sing. subject and 3rd person sing. id.o.) and not ვჰპასუხობ? In chapter 7 Aronson said (a) ვ and ჰ can coexist, i.e. one doesn't eclipse the other, and (b) ჰ precedes პ (as opposed to ს or null). He gave ვჰკითხულობ as an example of the ვჰCONS phenomenon. Does the ჰ just disappear out of convenience? If so, is it still technically correct to say ვჰპასუხობ?


I'm not sure actually. Looking at my own notes I can only find examples of ვჰპ- in Old Georgian (which also has things like ვჰმადლობ "I thank him" with ჰ in front of მ in the root). In Modern Georgian I can find a few examples of ვჰკ- (mostly in forms of ჰკითხავს), one example of ვჰყ-, etc., so it could be that it drops out between labials. I don't think I've ever read about this specifically, but I'll keep my eyes open.

Kavkaz
Posts: 110
Joined: 2012-06-14, 0:29
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kavkaz » 2017-04-28, 20:12

მადლობა, ჰანიბაზარდი.

My next question is about sentence 27 in the exercises section of chapter 10 in Aronson's RG. It is as follows:

მათ ცნობები უკვე მიეღოთ, როცა მათ წერილი გაეგზავნა.

It was translated in the answer key as: "They had already received the information when the letter was sent to them."

My question is about the second half of the sentence. If we ignore the context of the first half, is there any way for us to know გაეგზავნა is the relative II conjugation aorist as opposed to the I conjugation pluperfect? Meaning if we just had this

მათ წერილი გაეგზავნა.

Could it be translated as either "The letter was sent to them," or "They had sent the letter"? My thought is that no, because if it was to be "They had sent the letter" it would be მათ წერილი გაეგზანათ. Is that correct? The only difference is the plural marker -თ? Because if მათ is the inverted subject, or whatever it's called, of the verb, I'm guessing the ე...თ markers would have to be used, whereas if მათ was the indirect object of the verb, then the verb would not have the plural marker (since third person plural objects are not marked differently than singular ones in the verb, according to 7.1).

----

Also, just to recap, because all these conjugations are starting to get tangled in my brain...

Is გაეგზავნა formed the following way?

(I conj. fut.) გა=გზავნ-ი-ს s/he will send it
(II conj. fut.) გა=ი-გზავნ-ებ-ა it will be sent
(II conj. rel. fut.) გა=ე-გზავნ-ებ-ა it will be sent to somebody
(II conj. rel. aor.) გა=ე-გზავნ-ა it was sent to somebody

Thanks a lot in advance.
Native:  (en-us)
Intermediate:  (ru)
Beginner:  (ka)
Interested:  (ab) (ce) (inh) (kbd) (av)


Return to “Georgian (ქართული)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest