Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

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ninkaakanino
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Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-01-22, 19:43

any questions, doubts, suggestions, or ideas concerning Georgian Grammar?
go ahead.

:praise:
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby RCA » 2009-01-25, 16:09

How უნდა იყოს is to be translated in 'ეს ბერძნული ფრინველი უნდა იყოს'? It seems to have the meaning 'must be', but იყოს looks like a form of a past tense (or subjunctive?)...

What is the difference between არაფერს and არაფრის? Should I answer არაფრის when I hear მადლობა and არაფერს when I am told გმადლობ(თ)?

What is the difference between რაღა and რა?

What's the meaning of თან in the phrase თან ვეგეტარიანელი ვარ?
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-01-25, 17:36

RCA wrote:How უნდა იყოს is to be translated in 'ეს ბერძნული ფრინველი უნდა იყოს'? It seems to have the meaning 'must be', but იყოს looks like a form of a past tense (or subjunctive?)...


as already mentioned in the game thread, it means: must be. so your guess is right. no subjunctive or past.

RCA wrote:What is the difference between არაფერს and არაფრის? Should I answer არაფრის when I hear მადლობა and არაფერს when I am told გმადლობ(თ)?

actually there is no difference. but nice observation :D there is no such differentiation depending on the way sb thanks you in georgian. some think arafris is more correct, whereas you hear arafers all the time. so you decide. :)


RCA wrote:What is the difference between რაღა and რა?


ok, again where was that from? რაღა is like the "last possible რა". e.g. very restrictive

რა გითხრა? what to say (what should i say?)
რაღა გითხრა? - what else to say? (as - i have already told you everthing (else) nothing left
რაღა მე მეკითხები? - why are you asking it exactly me? (and nobody else)



RCA wrote:What's the meaning of თან in the phrase თან ვეგეტარიანელი ვარ?


I am a vegetarian.
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Laoshu505000 » 2009-01-27, 22:44

გამარჯობა მეგობარო!

I had a question about infinitives. I've been trying to find out how this works in Georgian. Could you give us some examples to show us how the infinitive works? For example:

I want to study Georgian.

I want to cut this piece of bread.

Something like that. Thanks in advance.

თაგვი

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-01-28, 17:38

Laoshu505000 wrote:გამარჯობა მეგობარო!

I had a question about infinitives. I've been trying to find out how this works in Georgian. Could you give us some examples to show us how the infinitive works? For example:

I want to study Georgian.

I want to cut this piece of bread.

Something like that. Thanks in advance.

თაგვი


so, here are some exmaples of infinitive:


I want to study Georgian- მე მინდა ქართულის სწავლა
I want to cut this piece of bread. - მე მინდა პურის ამ ნაჭრის მოჭრა.

in direct translation it would be like: i want "of Georgian" to learn. (learning of Georgian, that is)

in longer sentences, however, we don't use those infinitives, but. "i want that (i cut the bread) - plus subjunctive case" მე მინდა, რომ პური გავჭრა.
as complicated as it is, i hope you got an idea. when you look up a georgian verb in a dictionary, it is usually in infinitive (not cunjugated)
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Laoshu505000 » 2009-01-28, 21:18

გამარჯობა,

I have an idea now. I have this Georgian dictionary, but it's in word format. There are several translations for each word used differently. Your examples were very helpful. I hope you will stay with us for a while :) Thanks again. მადლობერი

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-01-29, 7:47

Laoshu505000 wrote:გამარჯობა,

I have an idea now. I have this Georgian dictionary, but it's in word format. There are several translations for each word used differently. Your examples were very helpful. I hope you will stay with us for a while :) Thanks again. მადლობერი


("მადლობელი ვარ" - i am grateful/thankful)

you are wecome. i am the moderator here, so i think i'll be around for a while. :hmm:
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby RCA » 2009-02-02, 15:31

ninkaakanino wrote:
RCA wrote:What is the difference between რაღა and რა?
...რაღა is like the "last possible რა". e.g. very restrictive
I see, I might have guessed that because ვეღარ = ვერ + ღა, აღარ = არ + ღა :)
ninkaakanino wrote:
RCA wrote: What's the meaning of თან in the phrase თან ვეგეტარიანელი ვარ?
I am a vegetarian.
Thanks, I understand the phrase as a whole, the only problem is the word თან in its beginning, my dictionaries report just one meaning (at), which doesn’t fit the sentence though…

I also have a question about infinitives. Should the direct object be always in the genitive case if used with an infinitive? In that text about the lion I saw a phrase: მოჰშივდა და თავის გამზრდელ კატას შეჭმა დაუპირა, i.e., the object here (თავის გამზრდელ კატას) is in the dative case, not genitive and I wonder why… BTW, in the phrase დაიწყო… ცხოველთა ჭამა the word ცხოველთა is equivalent of ცხოველების or ცხოველებს?
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-02-04, 22:48

RCA wrote: What's the meaning of თან in the phrase თან ვეგეტარიანელი ვარ?
I am a vegetarian.[/quote]

თან in this case means: "apart from that, additionaly, and also". it's like linked to the previous sentence in a way. close to თანაც


RCA wrote:I also have a question about infinitives. Should the direct object be always in the genitive case if used with an infinitive? In that text about the lion I saw a phrase: მოჰშივდა და თავის გამზრდელ კატას შეჭმა დაუპირა, i.e., the object here (თავის გამზრდელ კატას) is in the dative case, not genitive and I wonder why… BTW, in the phrase დაიწყო… ცხოველთა ჭამა the word ცხოველთა is equivalent of ცხოველების or ცხოველებს?


you forget again and again that i have never learned georgian as you did, so i find your questions sometimes pretty difficult to understand, let alone answer. but let me try.. :silly:

so in georgian you never know actually with cases. who said that direct object should be necessarily in genitive? ok. only when there is some possesion or relation. კატის შეჭმა eating of a cat (literally)
ქალის სიყვარული loving a woman (of a woman). there is always some kind of relation there. whereas in your above example, თავის გამზრდელ კატას შეჭმა დაუპირა mmm ok, i think it is because of the verb here - daupira. this -u- suffix refers to the object and it must require dative. other examples: მე ამ ვაშლს შეჭმა დავუპირე, თაგვმა კატას კოცნა დაუპირა.
if you had simple - i decided form, without that -u- siffix - თავისი გამზრდელი კატის შეჭმა დააპირა, then genitive would be the only correct form. phew. i hope i made it a bit clear. i had to rererererethink about it first for myself too.
i don't know the exact terms for this, but i think you know the difference between
დააპირა vs. დაუპირა


დაიწყო… ცხოველთა ჭამა the word ცხოველთა is equivalent of ცხოველების
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Laoshu505000 » 2009-02-06, 16:10

გამარჯობა მეგობრები!

დღეს მე მყავს ერთი საკითსი გრამატიკის შესახებ.

I want to see if these sentences make any sense:

დასაწყისში ქართულის შასწავლა ძალიან გამიძნელდა ( In the beginning, learning Georgian was very difficult)

როდესთცა ქართულის გამგზძავრება შასწავლა ძალიან გამიძნელდა (When I started learning Georgian, it was very difficult)



I'm sure the second sentence has some errors. I look forward to your reply.

თაგვი

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-02-06, 20:37

Laoshu505000 wrote:გამარჯობა მეგობრები!


გამარჯობათ მეგობრებო when you address somebody, the case must be in vocative. -ო at the end.

Laoshu505000 wrote:დღეს მე მყავს ერთი საკითსი გრამატიკის შესახებ.


მე მაქვს ერთი კითხვა გრამატიკასთან დაკავშირებით. you say - მყავს only with animate/living objects.


Laoshu505000 wrote:დასაწყისში ქართულის შასწავლა ძალიან გამიძნელდა ( In the beginning, learning Georgian was very difficult)
it is perfectly right.


Laoshu505000 wrote:როდესთცა ქართულის გამგზძავრება შასწავლა ძალიან გამიძნელდა (When I started learning Georgian, it was very difficult)


the correct translation: როდესაც ქართულის შესწავლა დავიწყე, ეს იყო ძალიან რთული.
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2009-04-18, 12:08

I'm currently reading Howard L. Aronson's Georgian - A reading grammar, and questions keep popping up, so I'm glad I've found this forum.

Here's my first question: On page 176 (chapter seven) Aronson lists some examples of relative verbs (i.e., verbs with indirect objects) in both their first and second conjugation forms. These examples are (and I hope the encoding works here):

დაუმალავს (I. conjugation, u- series)
დაემალება (II. conjugation, h- series)

შეადარებს (I. conjugation, h- series)
შეედარება (II. conjugation, h- series)

The first example makes sense to me. The first conjugation form დამალავს (with u- series indirect object markers) turns into the second conjugation დაიმალება (with preradical vowel ი), which has the relative form დაემალება (h- series because it is second conjugation with preradical vowel ი). No worries.

The second example, however, is a problem: If შეადარებს is the first conjugation form, shouldn't the second conjugation form be შედარდება (as by the rules listed on page 61)? And with an absolute form შედარდება (i.e., not having an indirect object) wouldn't the relative second conjugation form be შეუდარდება (as by the rules listed on page 175, e.g., შეერთდება --> შეუერთდება)? To get a relative second conjugation form შეედარება, the verb's absolute form would have to be შეიდარება (second conjugation in ი), wouldn't it?

Google confirms the situation:

შედარდება (229 results) vs. შეიდარება (5 results)
შეუდარდება (9 results) vs. შეედარება (164 results)

What's going on? The verb appears to form its relative second conjugation form from an absolute form შეიდარება even though its absolute form is actually შედარდება. Is the verb just irregular? Did I miss something? Or does Aronson first explain this in a later chapter (I can see there's a lot more information about indirect objects later in the book)?

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-04-18, 22:13

First of all, welcome to Georgian Language Forum, HoneyBuzzard.
Secondly, never ever trust Google hits. It cannot confirm anything, especially when it comes to Georgian grammar :mrgreen:

I am the moderator of this forum, a native speaker, and to tell you the truth i haven't read that Grammar book and don't know which rules you refer to. I cannot tell you much about those h or u series either (what are they? :ohwell: )

I would suggest, you introduce examples within a context (e.g. a sentence) if possible, and it would be also easier to explain each verb conjugation then.

HoneyBuzzard wrote:შეადარებს (I. conjugation, h- series)
შეედარება (II. conjugation, h- series)

The second example, however, is a problem: If შეადარებს is the first conjugation form, shouldn't the second conjugation form be შედარდება (as by the rules listed on page 61)? And with an absolute form შედარდება (i.e., not having an indirect object) wouldn't the relative second conjugation form be შეუდარდება (as by the rules listed on page 175, e.g., შეერთდება --> შეუერთდება)? To get a relative second conjugation form შეედარება, the verb's absolute form would have to be შეიდარება (second conjugation in ი), wouldn't it?


The rules about those verb conjugations and series in Georgian are pretty tricky, so i would discourage you from "guessing" your own forms, rather trust the book :silly:

შეადარებს (is mas) - that is a transitive verb, future tense (he/she will compare sth/sb (with sth))
შეედარება (is) - intransitive. passice sense. sb/sth can be compared to (compares itself to)

*შედარდება - is not a Georgian word at all. The infinitive form of the above examples would be - შედარება. (those infixes - -ი-, -უ-, -ა-, definitely have some specific funtcion and it's not that easy to come up with new forms on the analogy of other examples.)

შეუერთდება- means - sth will join/get connected to something. its absolute form is again - შეერთება. -უ- suggests some kind of literal "linking" between subject and object. (as "to" in "connect to sth/sb, join to", etc, but not only)

I hope that i have been of some help to you.

Good luck with Georgian :popcorn: :good4u:
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2009-04-19, 1:20

Thanks for your help. Stuff like this is always coming up when I read Aronson's book. ;)

Secondly, never ever trust Google hits. It cannot confirm anything, especially when it comes to Georgian grammar


Why not? Don't Georgians use correct grammar online?

i haven't read that Grammar book and don't know which rules you refer to


You can download it for free actually: http://www.seelrc.org:8080/grammar/pdf/stand_alone_georgian.pdf

I don't know why it's online, but it's hosted by Duke University, so it must be legal. I have the real book though. With grammar books I like to have them in print :)

I think Aronson uses a lot of idiosyncratic terminology though. He makes up new names for functions to make them easier to learn, and while that's nice for learning, it also makes it difficult to talk about Georgian grammar with people who haven't read the book. One thing he does differently, for example, is that he uses the future 3rd person as the dictionary form. I.e., he lists "to write" as დაწერს (lit. he will write it) and not as the gerund/masdar დაწერა (lit. writing).

I cannot tell you much about those h or u series either (what are they? )


Aronson says that indirect objects of first and second conjugation verbs are indicated by one of two groups of markers:

The h- series. Verbs that take the h- series change preradical vowel ი to ე (დაიმალება --> დაემალება) and have the markers მ (sg. 1st person), გვ (pl. 1st person), გ (sg. 2nd person), გ...თ (pl. 2nd person), ს (sg. and pl. 3rd person in front of დ, თ, ტ, ძ, ც, წ, ჯ, ჩ or ჭ), ჰ (sg. and pl. 3rd person in front of გ, ქ, კ or ყ) and -Ø (sg. and pl. 3rd person in front of any vowel or other consonant). E.g., დაიმალება he will hide --> დამემალება he will hide from me (the ი changes to ე and the person marker is added).

If an h- series verb does not have a preradical vowel ი, the indirect object markers are identical to the direct object markers except in the 3rd person. E.g., მომწერა he wrote it to me / he wrote me. მისწერა he wrote it to him.

Aronson says that the h- series is used with some first conjugation verbs (such as დაწერს and შეადარებს) and second conjugation verbs formed with a preradical vowel ი (such as დამალავს --> დამალება).

The u- series. Verbs that take the u- series use the preradical vowel ი for first and second person indirect objects and უ for third person indirect objects. The person markers are the same as the h- series (and so always -Ø in the third person since the marker will always precede a vowel). E.g., დამალავს he will hide it --> დამიმალავს he will hide it from me --> დაუმალავს he will hide it from him.

Aronson says that the u- series is used with most first conjugation verbs (such as დამალავს) and with the second conjugation verbs that have დ between the root and the present/future stem formant (PSF) (such as ააშენებს --> აშენება, e.g., აუშენდა it was built for him).

I hope all of that makes sense. It's late and I'm getting a little tired :)

*შედარდება - is not a Georgian word at all. The infinitive form of the above examples would be - შედარება.


That was supposed to be a second conjugation form, not an infinitive (which Aronson calls masdar or gerund). On page 61 he says that first conjugation verbs that have 1) a preradical vowel ა or ი, 2) a syllabic root and 3) a PSF in -ებ form their second conjugation forms by dropping the preradical vowel and adding a დ between the root and PSF (and, of course, adding the second conjugation screeve endings). E.g., ააშენებს --> აშენდება. My problem is basically that შეადარებს fits this pattern: it is a first conjugation verb with a preradical vowel ა, its root is syllabic (-დარ-) and the PSF is -ებ. Its second conjugation form should be შედარდება, but then its relative form could not be შედარება. I haven't found any rules to explain why the დ would disappear in the relative form and an ი appear. Does შეიდარება exist? If not, then how can შეედარება exist? Because as I've understood it, the ე in შედარება comes from ი (as in დაიმალება --> დაემალება).

He also says შეაერთებს he will unite it --> შეერთდება it will be united --> შეუერთდება it will be united to it (my translations, his examples). Note how both second conjugation forms have the დ in -დება. I noticed that there was no დ in your example. შეერთება is the masdar, not the absolute (= no indirect objects) second conjugation (= passive/intransitive) form, right? The absolute second conjugation form would still be შეერთდება (if not, I've really misunderstood something :huh: ).

I would suggest, you introduce examples within a context (e.g. a sentence) if possible, and it would be also easier to explain each verb conjugation then.


I'll try, but it's usually not so much a question of what a conjugation means but rather why it takes the form it does. There are lots of examples in the book though; every chapter has about fifty sentences to translate. I'll try to include some whole sentences next time :)

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2009-04-20, 16:32

Okay, I found something. In the notes for lesson 7 Aronson says:

The verb შეადარებს is irregular in that its relative II. conjugation form has -e- rather than -d- as an id.o. marker: შეედარება. Some relative II. conjugation verbs are not derived either from corresponding I. conjugation verbs or II. conjugation absolute verbs, but are themselves base forms. Examples include: დაეხმარება 'help s.o.', დაეთანხმება 'agree with s.o.' Such verbs form the verbal noun in -eb-a: დახმარება, დათანხმება.


Ah, well, that explains it. The verb was just irregular. Guess I should have read the notes more carefully :oops:

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-04-21, 21:28

Hey,

Well, georgians do use Georgian correctly in internet i assume, but there is always a place for typos which can lead you to mistakes.

As a native, i have trouble understanding all those aspects of grammar terms, but please don't expect me to download that book and read it all over just to try to get your point. I wish i had so much free time for myself :)

keep it up :flowers:
If you really want something in life you have to work for it. Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers. (H.S.)

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Stawrberry » 2009-10-24, 15:31

My question is not about grammar, I hope that's okay.
Is the Georgian alphabet written from left to right or from right to left? Are letters written joint or not? How much does the print form differ from the cursive form?

Gmadlobt! :)

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Kuba
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Kuba » 2009-11-06, 14:54

I don't know Georgian, but I know something about the Georgian scripts, so I think I can answer your question.
Both Georgian scripts are written from left to right. The script used today doesn't join letters, just like in Hebrew - and just as in Hebrew the hand-written form has theoretically also no letters written together. Theoretically, because there are legitures in both scripts: if you write two letters next to each other, they can be and will be joined if the flux of writing allows it, especially if the two letters appear frequently next to each other.
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tmk
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby tmk » 2009-11-06, 20:09

Hi, everyone!
I’m curious about distribution of preradical vowels (at Hillery's website, marked as PV, ‘-1’ slot, vertical axis) in 4th and stative verb classes (level axis). Is there any way to know preciselly what vowel is attached to verb or it just must be learned by heart? :hmm:
Last edited by tmk on 2009-11-07, 10:41, edited 1 time in total.
W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie
I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.
Wół go pyta - Panie chrząszczu,
Po cóż pan tak brzęczy w gąszczu?

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Stawrberry » 2009-11-06, 21:49

Kuba wrote:I don't know Georgian, but I know something about the Georgian scripts, so I think I can answer your question.
Both Georgian scripts are written from left to right. The script used today doesn't join letters, just like in Hebrew - and just as in Hebrew the hand-written form has theoretically also no letters written together. Theoretically, because there are legitures in both scripts: if you write two letters next to each other, they can be and will be joined if the flux of writing allows it, especially if the two letters appear frequently next to each other.


Thanks a lot!


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