The How do you Pronounce X Thread

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Rom
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The How do you Pronounce X Thread

Postby Rom » 2006-01-31, 2:42

I decided to start the "The How do you Pronounce X Thread" :D

How do you pronounce these words: hull, multi, golf, cult, difficult, insult, milk, silk, and vanella?

Here's how I pronounce them (if I transcribed them correctly at least :P ) :
hull [hV5]
multi [m5lti]
golf [gA5lf]

cult [kA5lt]
difficult [dIfIko5t]
insult [InsV5t]

milk [mE5k]
silk [sI5k]
vanella [vVnE5@]

I just noticed that I pronounce "cult" and "difficult" with different vowels, and vanilla differently then some people.

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Re: The How do you Pronounce X Thread

Postby Kirk » 2006-01-31, 6:28

One note, Rom, the word is spelled "vanilla" ;) Here are my pronunciations:

hull/hole [hoɫ]
hut [hʌt]
hope [ho̜p]
multi [ˈmoɫti] or [ˈmoɫtaɪ]
mutt [mʌt]
golf [ gɑɫf]
gulf [goɫf]
guff [gʌf]

cult/colt [kʰoɫt]
cut [kʰʌt]
coat [kʰo̜t]
difficult [ˈdɪfɪkʰɫ̩t]
insult [ˈɪnsoɫt]

silk [sɪɫk]
milk [mɛɫk]
ilk [ɪɫk]
elk [ɛɫk]
vanilla [vəˈnɪɫə]
pillow [ˈpʰɪɫo̜]
million [ˈmɪɫjɪn]

Rom wrote:I just noticed that I pronounce "cult" and "difficult" with different vowels, and vanilla differently then some people.


Interestingly, you also have the same vowel in "golf" and "cult," whereas I have two different ones there. We both have /ɛ/ for "milk" but I have /ɪ/ for "vanilla" and we both have /ɪ/ for "silk." I added in some more words with similar environments and also some words without [ɫ] to see how my default vowels are in such positions without the influence of [ɫ]. Pre-[ɫ] vowel phenomena can be really interesting across dialects.
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Re: The How do you Pronounce X Thread

Postby Travis B. » 2006-01-31, 10:16

I myself have for these words:

hull : [hʌːɫ]
hole : [hoːɫ]
hut : [hʌʔ]
hope : [hop]
multi : [ˈmɔɫtaɪ]
mutt : [mʌʔ]
golf : [gɔɫf]
gulf : [gɔɫf]
guff : [gʌf]

cult : [kʰʌɫʔ]
colt : [kʰoɫʔ]
coat : [kʰo̜t]
difficult : [ˈdɪfɪkɫ̩ʔ]
insult : [ˈɪ̃nsɔɫʔ]

silk : [sɪɫk]
milk : [mɪɫk]
ilk : [ɪɫk]
elk : [ɛɫk]
vanilla : [vɨ̃ˈnɪːɫə]
pillow : [ˈpʰɪːɫo]
million [ˈmɪːɫjɪ̃ːn]

Kirk wrote:
Rom wrote:I just noticed that I pronounce "cult" and "difficult" with different vowels, and vanilla differently then some people.


Interestingly, you also have the same vowel in "golf" and "cult," whereas I have two different ones there. We both have /ɛ/ for "milk" but I have /ɪ/ for "vanilla" and we both have /ɪ/ for "silk." I added in some more words with similar environments and also some words without [ɫ] to see how my default vowels are in such positions without the influence of [ɫ]. Pre-[ɫ] vowel phenomena can be really interesting across dialects.


In my dialect, I seem to have rounding of what would have been [ʌ], but it is to [ɔ] rather than [o] (possibly thanks to being NCVS rather than CVS), and it seems to occur in different places from where it occurs in your dialect. I myself cannot seem to get a consistent rule from my examples above, but it does seem to be less frequent or regular in my speech than in yours. On another note, I have /ɪ/ for both milk and vanilla. Note, though, that [mɛɫk] is also current for milk in this area, which both my mom and my girlfriend use for such.
secretGeek on CodingHorror wrote:Type inference is not a gateway drug to more dynamically typed languages.

Rather "var" is a gateway drug toward "real" type inferencing, of which var is but a tiny cigarette to the greater crack mountain!

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Re: The How do you Pronounce X Thread

Postby Kirk » 2006-01-31, 10:33

Travis B. wrote:I myself have for these words:

hull : [hʌːɫ]
hole : [hoːɫ]
hut : [hʌʔ]
hope : [hop]
multi : [ˈmɔɫtaɪ]
mutt : [mʌʔ]
golf : [gɔɫf]
gulf : [gɔɫf]
guff : [gʌf]

cult : [kʰʌɫʔ]
colt : [kʰoɫʔ]
coat : [kʰo̜t]
difficult : [ˈdɪfɪkɫ̩ʔ]
insult : [ˈɪ̃nsɔɫʔ]

silk : [sɪɫk]
milk : [mɪɫk]
ilk : [ɪɫk]
elk : [ɛɫk]
vanilla : [vɨ̃ˈnɪːɫə]
pillow : [ˈpʰɪːɫo]
million [ˈmɪːɫjɪ̃ːn]

Kirk wrote:
Rom wrote:I just noticed that I pronounce "cult" and "difficult" with different vowels, and vanilla differently then some people.


Interestingly, you also have the same vowel in "golf" and "cult," whereas I have two different ones there. We both have /ɛ/ for "milk" but I have /ɪ/ for "vanilla" and we both have /ɪ/ for "silk." I added in some more words with similar environments and also some words without [ɫ] to see how my default vowels are in such positions without the influence of [ɫ]. Pre-[ɫ] vowel phenomena can be really interesting across dialects.


In my dialect, I seem to have rounding of what would have been [ʌ], but it is to [ɔ] rather than [o] (possibly thanks to being NCVS rather than CVS), and it seems to occur in different places from where it occurs in your dialect. I myself cannot seem to get a consistent rule from my examples above, but it does seem to be less frequent or regular in my speech than in yours. On another note, I have /ɪ/ for both milk and vanilla. Note, though, that [mɛɫk] is also current for milk in this area, which both my mom and my girlfriend use for such.


Yes, your data are certaintly interesting. As you said, I can't find rules that work as consistently as they do for my speech. I was somewhat surprised you pronounce "golf/gulf" the same. You don't do the same for "doll/dull" right? Or do you?
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Re: The How do you Pronounce X Thread

Postby Travis B. » 2006-01-31, 11:09

Kirk wrote:Yes, your data are certaintly interesting. As you said, I can't find rules that work as consistently as they do for my speech. I was somewhat surprised you pronounce "golf/gulf" the same. You don't do the same for "doll/dull" right? Or do you?


I myself pronounce doll as [dɔːɫ] and dull as [dʌːɫ]. The main thing here is that the change of historical [ʌ] to [ɔ] can only occur if there is another consonant (and I would suspect an obstruent at that) after /ɫ/, but even that is not consistent, as shown by my aforementioned examples. One note though is that there is consistently [ɔɫ] for what was most likely historically [ɑɫ] in my dialect. Furthermore, there is an interesting alternation for what was most likely historically [ɒɫ] where such has been shifted in a syllable structure-dependent fashion to either [ɔɫ] or [ɑɫ] depending on whether such is split by a syllable boundary, which has been morphologically frozen in different related wordforms based on the same root, such as doll and dolly, which for me is [ˈdɑːɫi].
secretGeek on CodingHorror wrote:Type inference is not a gateway drug to more dynamically typed languages.

Rather "var" is a gateway drug toward "real" type inferencing, of which var is but a tiny cigarette to the greater crack mountain!

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Postby kibo » 2006-01-31, 11:10

Good. You can make it a sticky too...
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Re: The How do you Pronounce X Thread

Postby Kirk » 2006-01-31, 22:11

Travis B. wrote:
Kirk wrote:Yes, your data are certaintly interesting. As you said, I can't find rules that work as consistently as they do for my speech. I was somewhat surprised you pronounce "golf/gulf" the same. You don't do the same for "doll/dull" right? Or do you?


I myself pronounce doll as [dɔːɫ] and dull as [dʌːɫ]. The main thing here is that the change of historical [ʌ] to [ɔ] can only occur if there is another consonant (and I would suspect an obstruent at that) after /ɫ/, but even that is not consistent, as shown by my aforementioned examples. One note though is that there is consistently [ɔɫ] for what was most likely historically [ɑɫ] in my dialect. Furthermore, there is an interesting alternation for what was most likely historically [ɒɫ] where such has been shifted in a syllable structure-dependent fashion to either [ɔɫ] or [ɑɫ] depending on whether such is split by a syllable boundary, which has been morphologically frozen in different related wordforms based on the same root, such as doll and dolly, which for me is [ˈdɑːɫi].


Yeah, I remember talking with you about that phenomenon in your dialect before. Really interesting.

Bugi wrote:Good. You can make it a sticky too...


Done ;)
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Re: The How do you Pronounce X Thread

Postby Travis B. » 2006-02-01, 0:13

Kirk wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
Kirk wrote:Yes, your data are certaintly interesting. As you said, I can't find rules that work as consistently as they do for my speech. I was somewhat surprised you pronounce "golf/gulf" the same. You don't do the same for "doll/dull" right? Or do you?


I myself pronounce doll as [dɔːɫ] and dull as [dʌːɫ]. The main thing here is that the change of historical [ʌ] to [ɔ] can only occur if there is another consonant (and I would suspect an obstruent at that) after /ɫ/, but even that is not consistent, as shown by my aforementioned examples. One note though is that there is consistently [ɔɫ] for what was most likely historically [ɑɫ] in my dialect. Furthermore, there is an interesting alternation for what was most likely historically [ɒɫ] where such has been shifted in a syllable structure-dependent fashion to either [ɔɫ] or [ɑɫ] depending on whether such is split by a syllable boundary, which has been morphologically frozen in different related wordforms based on the same root, such as doll and dolly, which for me is [ˈdɑːɫi].


Yeah, I remember talking with you about that phenomenon in your dialect before. Really interesting.


Yeah, it's quite interesting to me as well. The first thing is that it has to be a quite old set of shifts, by NAE standards, as the upper bound on it, time-wise, is the point where the father-bother merger occurred in the dialects from which the English here today originated. My guess is that it took the form of three different shifts, two happening at around the same period of time, and one happening later. These would be [ɑɫ] -> [ɔɫ], [ɒɫ] -> [ɔɫ], and [ɒ] -> [ɑ], with the order of the first two being unclear, but definitely occurring before the father-bother merger.

Edit: One note I forgot to add is that such sound changes other than the father-bother merger likely originated in the present-day UK, since there are many dialects there which have similar vowels in the same positions as me here, even though they don't necessarily use the same vowels; for example, many English English dialects have [ɒɫ] where I have [ɔɫ] corresponding to likely historical [ɑɫ], indicating that it likely was a related shift, which most likely occurred in the same general time frame, which just happened to have a slightly different result.
secretGeek on CodingHorror wrote:Type inference is not a gateway drug to more dynamically typed languages.

Rather "var" is a gateway drug toward "real" type inferencing, of which var is but a tiny cigarette to the greater crack mountain!

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Postby Brenda » 2006-02-01, 2:16

In the ph verb "give up" as used in these sentences, which word do you stress? (ie, "give" or "up"?)
- She couldn't bear such an ordeal and had to give up.
- We must give up.
- I'll give up smoking soon.

The dictionary says that it should be stressed in "up". But the matter is that for some reason I find it more natural to stress the first word of the phrasal verb when it occurs at the end of a long sentence. So tell me, am I wrong doing this?
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Postby Brenda » 2006-02-01, 2:23

One more question.
How do you pronounce the TM "Nike".
Here in Argentina we all say it somethink like "naik" (don't wanna use IPA :P), but I've been told that in English speaking countries they say "niki".
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Postby Rom » 2006-02-01, 2:32

-Pablo- wrote:One more question.
How do you pronounce the TM "Nike".
Here in Argentina we all say it somethink like "naik" (don't wanna use IPA :P), but I've been told that in English speaking countries they say "niki".

It's pronounced [naIki].
Last edited by Rom on 2006-02-01, 3:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Travis B. » 2006-02-01, 2:33

-Pablo- wrote:One more question.
How do you pronounce the TM "Nike".
Here in Argentina we all say it somethink like "naik" (don't wanna use IPA :P), but I've been told that in English speaking countries they say "niki".


I myself pronounce "Nike" as [ˈnəɪki], which might be somewhat like what you mean by "niki".
secretGeek on CodingHorror wrote:Type inference is not a gateway drug to more dynamically typed languages.

Rather "var" is a gateway drug toward "real" type inferencing, of which var is but a tiny cigarette to the greater crack mountain!

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Postby Psi-Lord » 2006-02-01, 2:49

Travis B. wrote:
-Pablo- wrote:Here in Argentina we all say it somethink like "naik" (don't wanna use IPA :P), but I've been told that in English speaking countries they say "niki".

I myself pronounce "Nike" as [ˈnəɪki], which might be somewhat like what you mean by "niki".

I'd got the impression what Pablo meant by 'niki' was more along the lines of 'nikki' [ˈnɪki] instead.
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Postby Stan » 2006-02-01, 2:52

-Pablo- wrote:One more question.
How do you pronounce the TM "Nike".
Here in Argentina we all say it somethink like "naik" (don't wanna use IPA :P), but I've been told that in English speaking countries they say "niki".


Naiki
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Postby Kirk » 2006-02-01, 4:08

Mine's the same as Travis' except since I have no Canadian Raising it's [ˈnaɪkʰi] for me. I assume that's what Stan has, as well.
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Postby JackFrost » 2006-02-01, 6:04

As for me, I say it like "naik" with the i sound that you would find in "I" (the first person pronoun). I don't say the final letter.

Looking at two other Americans saying it with the e, I feel a little an odd one out not saying the final letter. My family does the same.
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2006-02-01, 17:18

It's been quite a while since I last quoted the Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary, so here I come. :)

Nike

goddess:
/ˈnaɪ.kiː/

trademark:
UK /ˈnaɪ.ki/; /naɪk/
US /ˈnaɪ.ki/
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Postby Drochfhuaimniú » 2006-02-04, 22:44

I have a microphone, a host, and an american english accent. So if you want something recorded, I can do it for you.

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Postby Kirk » 2006-02-06, 23:56

Does anyone else here have the pronunciation [θeŋ] for "thing?" I usually do (tho it's interchangeable with [θiŋ] for me) and it seems relatively common here. Since I have front-vowel raising before monomorphemic /ŋ/, historical /θɪŋ/ is my [θiŋ] and I presume my [θeŋ] is rooted in historical /θæŋ/ (as historical /hæŋ/ is my [heŋ]), which is found in some American dialects of English.

What's interesting is that in related forms "something" and "nothing" I only have [-iŋ], never *[-eŋ]. This would also seem to give evidence to the analysis of my [θeŋ] as rooted in a separate lexical item from historical /θɪŋ/, as /ɪŋ/>/eŋ/ does not occur elsewhere in my dialect.
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby Travis B. » 2006-02-07, 2:17

Kirk wrote:Does anyone else here have the pronunciation [θeŋ] for "thing?" I usually do (tho it's interchangeable with [θiŋ] for me) and it seems relatively common here. Since I have front-vowel raising before monomorphemic /ŋ/, historical /θɪŋ/ is my [θiŋ] and I presume my [θeŋ] is rooted in historical /θæŋ/ (as historical /hæŋ/ is my [heŋ]), which is found in some American dialects of English.

What's interesting is that in related forms "something" and "nothing" I only have [-iŋ], never *[-eŋ]. This would also seem to give evidence to the analysis of my [θeŋ] as rooted in a separate lexical item from historical /θɪŋ/, as /ɪŋ/>/eŋ/ does not occur elsewhere in my dialect.


I definitely don't have it, since I only have [θɪ̃ːŋ] for thing myself. I have heard [θẽːŋ] for thing, but that is not a native usage here.
secretGeek on CodingHorror wrote:Type inference is not a gateway drug to more dynamically typed languages.

Rather "var" is a gateway drug toward "real" type inferencing, of which var is but a tiny cigarette to the greater crack mountain!


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