IpseDixit - English

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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2015-06-29, 16:29

IpseDixit wrote:Anyways my youtuber is Emergency Awesome

Yeah, that's him. There's another interesting non-standard feature in his speech, which is that he uses "whenever" to refer to a definite time, where other speakers would use "when".
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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby linguoboy » 2015-06-29, 16:43

"Back formation" is when new words are derived from words which look like derivatives but aren't. A well-known example in English is the verb peddle from the apparent agent noun peddler. But peddler is attested three centuries before peddle and is alternatively spelled pedlar to boot.

So I imagine someone looking at a collocation like "international country codes" and parsing it as "[international country] codes" rather than "international [country codes]", from which they extract and generalise "international countries".

Alternatively, as Laxar says, it could be a case of taking "international" as a synonym for "foreign" from its use in such contexts as "international student" or "international news".
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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-06-29, 16:46

Lazar Taxon wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Anyways my youtuber is Emergency Awesome

Yeah, that's him. There's another interesting non-standard feature in his speech, which is that he uses "whenever" to refer to a definite time, where other speakers would use "when".


Do you know where he's from?

linguoboy wrote:"Back formation" is when new words are derived from words which look like derivatives but aren't. A well-known example in English is the verb peddle from the apparent agent noun peddler. But peddler is attested three centuries before peddle and is alternatively spelled pedlar to boot.

So I imagine someone looking at a collocation like "international country codes" and parsing it as "[international country] codes" rather than "international [country codes]", from which they extract and generalise "international countries".

Alternatively, as Laxar says, it could be a case of taking "international" as a synonym for "foreign" from its use in such contexts as "international student" or "international news".


I see. Thanks for clarifying.

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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2015-06-29, 17:15

IpseDixit wrote:Do you know where he's from?

No; his accent isn't very regionally marked. But I've been told that this usage of "whenever" is associated with Texas and Oklahoma.

linguoboy wrote:A well-known example in English is the verb peddle from the apparent agent noun peddler. But peddler is attested three centuries before peddle and is alternatively spelled pedlar to boot.

My favorite is BrEng "burgle" (=AmEng "burglarize"), from "burglar".
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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-07-06, 11:16

I've always had a doubt about "either", in a sentence like "I don't like it either", to what does "either" refer? I or it?

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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby linguoboy » 2015-07-06, 13:46

IpseDixit wrote:I've always had a doubt about "either", in a sentence like "I don't like it either", to what does "either" refer? I or it?

Depends on context. E.g.:

"I don't like brie."
"So have some fontina."
"I don't like it either."

***

"I don't like brie."
"Who doesn't like brie?"
"To be honest, I don't like it either."
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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-07-06, 13:49

linguoboy wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:I've always had a doubt about "either", in a sentence like "I don't like it either", to what does "either" refer? I or it?

Depends on context. E.g.:

"I don't like brie."
"So have some fontina."
"I don't like it either."

***

"I don't like brie."
"Who doesn't like brie?"
"To be honest, I don't like it either."


Ok, another thing, in the second example would it sound off if I said "I, too, don't like it"?

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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby linguoboy » 2015-07-06, 14:51

IpseDixit wrote:Ok, another thing, in the second example would it sound off if I said "I, too, don't like it"?

Yup. "I don't X too" is one of the easiest ways to spot a non-native speaker.
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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-07-12, 15:59

Today I've been to a South African War Cemetery and on a wall there was this sentence:

To serve mankind yourselves you scorned to save.

I really don't understand it :\

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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby Car » 2015-07-12, 16:10

It's from O Valiant Hearts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Valiant_Hearts

I think it uses the second meaning of "to scorn" found here, but I think a native speaker will know better.
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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby linguoboy » 2015-07-12, 23:14

IpseDixit wrote:Today I've been to a South African War Cemetery and on a wall there was this sentence:

To serve mankind yourselves you scorned to save.

I really don't understand it :\

It also may help to know that there is a pause between "mankind" and "yourselves". Reordered in non-poetic syntax, the sentence would read: "You scorned to save yourselves [in order] to serve mankind."
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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-07-21, 18:05

What does go on to somewhere mean?

I found it in a Duran Duran's song:

I came by invitation to general Chelsea mayhem
Then going on to somewhere
Yes, I was going somewhere

A single random meeting with your eyes and I am beaten
And now I'm going nowhere
I know I'm going nowhere

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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby linguoboy » 2015-07-21, 18:14

IpseDixit wrote:What does go on to somewhere mean?

To continue on to somewhere. That is, to head out, stop at one place, and go from that place to another place without returning to your starting point (generally assumed to be your home). E.g. "It was at Philippi that Paul first preached Christ in Europe, going on from there to Thessalonica and Beroea."
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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-07-25, 16:23

Here's my crappy attempt to translate a page from Baudolino by U. Eco. Any correction and suggestion is appreciated.

"What?" asked Niceta after he had turned the scroll around in his hands and had tried to read some lines of it.
"That is my first writing exercise," answered Baudolino, "and ever since I wrote it - I think I was fourteen and still a creature of the woods - I have always carried it with me, like an amulet. After that one I filled many other parchments, sometimes on a daily basis. I seemed to exist only because in the evening I could recount what had happened to me in the morning. And I just needed some monthly regesta, few lines, in order to remember the main events. And, I would tell to myself, when I am old - that is to say now - on the basis of these notes, I will write the Gesta Baudolini. So in my journeys, I would carry the story of my life. However, during the escape from the kingdom of Prester John..."
"Prester John?" I have never heard of him.
"I will tell you about him, perhaps even too much. But I was saying (I've been saying?): whilst I was fleeing, I lost all those papers. It was as if I had lost my life itself."
"You will tell me what you remember. Fragments of facts, shreds of events come to me and I make a story out of them, weaved in a providential design. By saving me, you have gifted me the little future with which I am left, and I will repay you by giving you back the past that you have lost."
"But maybe my story does not have a meaning..."
"There are no stories which do not have a meaning. And I am one of those men that are able to find it even where other men cannot see it. After that, the story becomes a book of the living, like a shrill trumpet that makes those who had been ashes for centuries resurrect from the sepulchre... However it takes time, we have to consider the events, connect them, find out the links, even the less visible ones. But we have nothing to do, your Genoese say that we will have to wait till the rage of those dogs calms down."
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2015-07-26, 9:46, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby linguoboy » 2015-07-25, 16:28

I don't have time to proofread at the moment, but one thing shot out at me: the English name for the legendary figure of "Prete Gianni" is Prester John. (Don'[t ask me why; far as I know this is the only occurrence of this form in English.)
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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby dEhiN » 2015-07-28, 16:11

IpseDixit wrote:"What?" asked Niceta, after he had turned the scroll around in his hands and had tried to read some lines of it.

I think "some of it" sounds more natural than "some lines of it". Or I might instead say "a few lines".

IpseDixit wrote:"That is was my first writing exercise," answered Baudolino, "and ever since I wrote it - I think I was fourteen and still a creature of the woods - I have always carried it with me, like an amulet. After that one I filled many other parchments, sometimes on a daily basis. I seemed to exist only because, in the evening, I could recount what had happened to me in the morning. And I just needed some monthly regesta, few lines, in order to remember the main events. And, I would tell to myself, when I am old - that is to say now - on the basis of these notes, I will write the Gesta Baudolini. So in my journeys, I would carry the story of my life. However, during the escape from the kingdom of Prester John..."

The sentence in bold "And I just..." doesn't really flow from the previous sentence. You're using the conjunction "and" but the sentence doesn't really conjunct with what came before. I think it's a temporal issue - in the previous 2 sentences you are talking about a period of time in the past. Yet this sentence gives the idea of a specific point in the past.

What does regesta mean? If it's a title like Gesta Baudolini, capitalise it. If not, but you still want to include the Italian word, you could write something like "...monthly regesta - a blah-blah explanation - ...".

The plural "journeys" does work here, based on a personal stylistic choice. To me, the whole life being referred to is one big journey, and I use the term that way. But I've seen others who think of each adventure in life as a journey, hence the journeys of life.

IpseDixit wrote:"Prester John?" I have never heard of him."


IpseDixit wrote:"I will tell you about him, perhaps even too much. But as I was saying (I've been saying?):, whilst I was fleeing, I lost all those papers. It was as if I had lost my life itself."


IpseDixit wrote:"You will tell me what you remember. Fragments of facts, shreds of events come to me and I make a story out of them, weaved in a providential design. By saving me, you have gifted me the little future with which I am left, and I will repay you by giving you back the past that you have lost."

"You will tell me" sounds like a command, almost like the imperative; did you mean it to sound like a command?

IpseDixit wrote:"But maybe my story does not have a meaning..."
"There are no stories which do not have a meaning. And I am one of those men that are is (The subject is singular since it's "one of those men".) able to find it even where other men cannot see it. After that, the story becomes a book of the living, like a shrill trumpet that makes those who had been ashes for centuries resurrect from the sepulchre... However it takes time, - we have to consider the events, connect them, find out the links, even the less visible ones. But we have nothing to do, your Genoese (Is Genoese plural or singular?) say that we will have to wait till the rage of those dogs calms down."


A general note:
1) The placement of some of the commas are personal style choices. I did try to add a comma when the sentence would be considered long or a run-on sentence. But I also, personally, use commas quite a bit.
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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-07-28, 17:59

Thanks dEhiN. Now, to be honest the regesta part is quite obscure even to me, IMO also the original text has the same kind of problem, that's to say that sentence seems to come out of nowhere. Anyway a regesta is this thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regesta

dEhiN wrote:The plural "journeys" does work here, based on a personal stylistic choice. To me, the whole life being referred to is one big journey, and I use the term that way. But I've seen others who think of each adventure in life as a journey, hence the journeys of life.


In this case he's talking about actual journeys.

"You will tell me" sounds like a command, almost like the imperative; did you mean it to sound like a command?


Yeah, it's kind of a gentle comand, if that makes sense.

(The subject is singular since it's "one of those men".)


Are you sure? Aren't both of them acceptable?

(Is Genoese plural or singular?)


Plural.

---

Anyway, beside the strict grammatical mistakes, how does my text sound? Does it sound natural?

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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby dEhiN » 2015-07-29, 3:46

IpseDixit wrote:Thanks dEhiN. Now, to be honest the regesta part is quite obscure even to me, IMO also the original text has the same kind of problem, that's to say that sentence seems to come out of nowhere. Anyway a regesta is this thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regesta

Thanks, learned something new!

IpseDixit wrote:
dEhiN wrote:The plural "journeys" does work here, based on a personal stylistic choice. To me, the whole life being referred to is one big journey, and I use the term that way. But I've seen others who think of each adventure in life as a journey, hence the journeys of life.


In this case he's talking about actual journeys.

I reread that part, and I get the sense now; but I would then change the preposition to "on" instead of "in". So you could say "on/in the journey of life" but for other usages of the word, "in" tends to be used with "journey" and "on" with "journeys": in my journey through the Sahara / on my journeys to the rainforests of Brazil

This isn't a hard and fast rule, just what seems to be common usage (at least from what I've seen).

IpseDixit wrote:
"You will tell me" sounds like a command, almost like the imperative; did you mean it to sound like a command?


Yeah, it's kind of a gentle comand, if that makes sense.

That makes sense; in that case keep it.

IpseDixit wrote:
(The subject is singular since it's "one of those men".)


Are you sure? Aren't both of them acceptable?

Thinking about it again, I guess both are still acceptable. I believe "are" is the older form - I feel like I used to hear the plural form used in situations like that more so back in the 90s. Nowadays I think the singular "is" is used more; I initially wanted to correct it with a contraction: "And I am one of those men that's able..." which would imply the singular.

IpseDixit wrote:Anyway, beside the strict grammatical mistakes, how does my text sound? Does it sound natural?

It sounds pretty good. I like some of the poetic language you used. If I were rewriting it, I would probably cut down on the verbosity at some points, but it flows well and sounds natural.
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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby Dormouse559 » 2015-07-29, 17:48

Here's my two cents:

IpseDixit wrote:"What is this?" asked Niceta …

I have always carried it with me, like an amulet (or "a talisman").
For me, "talisman" can refer to an informal good-luck charm, like Baudolino describes, in a way that "amulet" can't. "Amulet" feels harder to separate from jewelry and things that are supposed be literally magical.

IpseDixit wrote:And I just needed some monthly regesta, a few lines …

And, I would tell to myself …

I make a story out of them, weaved woven in a providential design.

By saving me, you have gifted me the little future I have left

But we have nothing to do; your Genoese say that we will have to wait till the rage of those dogs calms down."
Formal English is generally less willing to join complete sentences with a comma. I added a semicolon, which communicates that the two sentences are logically related. A period would also do just fine.

I also feel like "your Genoese" is an odd construction. It's unusual, if not a bit offensive, to use demonyms as nouns when not referring to the entire group (i.e. "the Genoese" the people of Genoa). But it depends on how the characters/narrator view these people. Are the Genoese looked down upon, thought of as inferiors or servants? If yes, the noun usage works. If not, it might be best to find another phrase, like "your Genoese companions" or whatever makes sense.
Last edited by Dormouse559 on 2015-07-29, 18:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: IpseDixit - English

Postby dEhiN » 2015-07-29, 18:17

Wow, I can't believe I missed some of those! Yeah, I would agree with Dormouse559 about talisman over amulet; you could even use the term "good luck charm". I guess when I proofread it, I was focusing more on the grammar of the text itself, and not taking into account the larger context because I didn't know the context. I also realized why I missed those 5 or 6 corrections; from doing so many language exchanges I've gotten used to ESL English, and was thinking in terms of passable ESL English! :D
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