I have some questions

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LifeDeath
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Re: I have some questions

Postby LifeDeath » 2017-03-20, 15:09

linguoboy wrote:Because this action is in progress if you take it in the non-literal meaning Dormouse explained: This rap is creating a new standard by which performances will be judged.

And that's why I like some lyrics of some songs. Especially where non-standard registers are involved. Because it's interesting to see and try to understand what an author wanted us to understand. It's like relishing some good paintings or classical music.

But I think now I've found the thing that was confusing me. My last example seemed strange to me, too. As you said, the second sentence is certain when the first one is not. And you connected them by putting a proper word and now they sound alright. It can also be something different, for example "I think I'm strong enough to go to the pub, you know, I think I'm drinking some beer tonight".

But in that song it was:
"Or the corner pub, and lift the whole liquor counter up
Cause I'm raising the bar."

The word that connects those two sentences is "cause". I suppose the main function of this word in any context is explaining reasons.
"I can't understand this cause I'm stupid". Here "cause" has the second part of the sentence as the explanation for the first part ("I'm stupid, and this is the reason why I can't understand this"). But I don't understand how "raising the bar" might explain "being strong enough to lift the counter up".
Anyway, I think I grasped the meaning of this wordplay, except that little issue mentioned above.

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Re: I have some questions

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-03-20, 19:28

linguoboy wrote:
Babbsagg wrote:To be honest, I don't think that rap lyrics always make a lot of sense. Neither do they always hold up to literature standards. It's mostly over the top self-aggrandisement mixed with third-rate wordplays.

You need to listen to different rappers.


Heh, I know there are better ones. Rap is just generally something I'm lost on (I love NWA though), and I can be a bit polemic/generalising at times, but usually I'm not being too serious when doing that. Sorry for misunderstandings, I know I'm asking for it.
Thank you for correcting mistakes!

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Re: I have some questions

Postby LifeDeath » 2017-03-27, 12:08

How do you pronounce "important" and "written"? I know that the IPA says /ɪmˈpɔɹtənt/ and /ˈɹɪtn̩/
But I wonder if some sounds might be reduced here or omitted at all. I don't know why, I guess I heard it in movies, but I think that it's usually pronounced like /ɪmpɔənt/ and /rɪən/ (or /ɹtn/). Or even /ɪmpɔn/. What do you think is the actual way to pronounce these words?
I can record what I mean if you don't understnad or not sure.

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Re: I have some questions

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-03-27, 15:08

That's a widespread "phenomenon" in English colloquial speech called T-glottalization. It's when many T's (not all) are replaced by a glottal stop [ʔ]. In some cases, it can disappear entirely. It's especially widespread in Britain, and all my English friends do it.

I'm no specialist on AmE, but I think it's less common there. Maybe because those T's are usually pronounced like D's already? When listening to AmE, I always hear "bedder" instead of "better", "buddon" instead of "button" etc. In Britain, many will say "be'er" and "bu'on" instead. In fact, I really have to force myself to pronounce the T in "button" (I'm in constant contact with BrE which rubs off on me to some extent).

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEcbQrps0dQ
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Re: I have some questions

Postby LifeDeath » 2017-03-27, 16:00

Yes. Since I'm interested in American English, I'd like to know how it is actually in AmE. When I said that I might have heard it in movies, I meant American films. That's why I think it is not uncommon for American English. I've watched the video and I think that it can be the same with some words in AmE (like in those that I asked about, where "t" does not typically becomes "d"). I just caught myself thinking - maybe that's how African-Americans pronounce them. I don't know how this type of accent is called, I'd really like to read about that, but usually African-Americans[*] have sort of their own accent. For example, when I hear it in movies or songs, I instantly realize that the speaker is African-American.
For example, in this another song of Eminem when the refrain starts at 1:43, I know that the singer is African-American. In other parts of the song I know that the singer has the different skin colour. There's something about his accent that makes me feel like that. Maybe it's how he pronounces "leg" with the too soft and long "e" sound alongside with others attributes.
So I mean maybe that's where I heard those "important"s and "written"s from? Or is it widespread and common among others American English speakers?

*How do we call people with the black skin colour? I don't want to be racistic at all. But I wanted to use "black people" and when I checked it in Google it said that it does sound racistic.

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Re: I have some questions

Postby linguoboy » 2017-03-27, 17:59

Babbsagg wrote:I'm no specialist on AmE, but I think it's less common there. Maybe because those T's are usually pronounced like D's already? When listening to AmE, I always hear "bedder" instead of "better", "buddon" instead of "button" etc.

Those aren't d's. You're talking about a well-studied phenomenon known as "tapping" or "flapping": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping. The sound in question is actually [ɾ], but it probably sounds like [d] to you since that's the closest equivalent in most varieties of German.

In allegro speech, [ɾ] is optionally deleted. So a word like lettuce may occur as [ˈlɛ.ɪs] in some contexts.

T-glottalisation is also present in American English, and not just in a few dialects either. I believe a glottal stop is what I ordinarily have in written and important (and before unstressed final /n/ generally) rather than the [ɾ] I have elsewhere.

LifeDeath wrote:Yes. Since I'm interested in American English, I'd like to know how it is actually is in AmE. When I said that I might have heard it in movies, I meant American films. That's why I think it is not uncommon for American English. I've watched the video and I think that it can be the same with some words in AmE (like in those that I asked about, where "t" does not typically becomes "d"). I just caught myself thinking - maybe that's how African-Americans pronounce them. I don't know howwhat this type of accent is called, I'd really like to read about that, but usually African-Americans[*] have sort of their own accent. For example, when I hear it in movies or songs, I instantly realize that the speaker is African-American.

The term in linguistics is African-American vernacular English, abbreviated to "AAVE". This refers not just to the accent but to the associated dialect as well. Popular terms include "Ebonics", "Black English", and "Blaccent".

This accent is typical only of certain socioeconomic subgroups of African-Americans. Most middle-class African Americans sound identical to their peers from other racial backgrounds. In additions, non-African-Americans raised in certain communities will grow up speaking AAVE. (Eminem, for instance, grew up in Detroit's East Side, which is predominately Black and lower-class. So unlike some White rappers, he speaks AAVE with near-native fluency.)

LifeDeath wrote:For example, in this another song of Eminem's when the refrain starts at 1:43, I know that the singer is African-American. In other parts of the song I know that the singer has this different skin colour. There's something about his accent that makes me feel like that. Maybe it's how he pronounces "leg" with the too soft and long "e" sound alongside with others attributes. So I mean maybe that's where I heard those "important"s and "written"s from? Or is it widespread and common among others American English speakers?

*How do we call people with the black skin colour? I don't want to be racistic at all. But I wanted to use "black people" and when I checked it in Google it said that it does sound racistic.

It really depends on context. In certain contexts, "you people" sounds racist.

It also depends how precise you want to be. "Black" and "African-American" are not synonyms, for instance, because there are Black people everywhere in the world and some of the Black people in the USA are not African.
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Re: I have some questions

Postby LifeDeath » 2017-04-01, 17:40

Thanks.

I was trying to explain some grammar to a guy from an English topic from a social network (vk).
He was asking whether we should use "addres" or "adress to" in a sentence "She turned to address the man on her left".
I explained that "to" is used when you want to address "something" to someone else. But if you address directly someone, nothing else involved, then you don't have to use "to". But as I'm a little bit confused in linguistic terms (and I talk in that topic in English), I want to ask you about it.
How is the first usage called? (I mean things like "Explain to", "Address to").
And how is the second one called? ("Explain smth", "Address smth").

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Re: I have some questions

Postby LifeDeath » 2017-04-01, 18:07

"She addressed the man".
"She addressed the speech to the man".


I tried to say that in the second case there's a kind of adjunct (some extra information about what she addressed him (speech)).
And in the first there's not such thing. The subject ("the man") is taken by the object ("She") directly, and there's no kind of relationship between them, that's why we don't use "to" (unlike in the second case)

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Re: I have some questions

Postby Babbsagg » 2017-04-01, 18:12

linguoboy wrote:
Babbsagg wrote:I'm no specialist on AmE, but I think it's less common there. Maybe because those T's are usually pronounced like D's already? When listening to AmE, I always hear "bedder" instead of "better", "buddon" instead of "button" etc.

Those aren't d's. You're talking about a well-studied phenomenon known as "tapping" or "flapping": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping. The sound in question is actually [ɾ], but it probably sounds like [d] to you since that's the closest equivalent in most varieties of German.

In allegro speech, [ɾ] is optionally deleted. So a word like lettuce may occur as [ˈlɛ.ɪs] in some contexts.

T-glottalisation is also present in American English, and not just in a few dialects either. I believe a glottal stop is what I ordinarily have in written and important (and before unstressed final /n/ generally) rather than the [ɾ] I have elsewhere.

Thanks for the info, learning never stops.
Thank you for correcting mistakes!

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Re: I have some questions

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-04, 16:15

LifeDeath wrote:I was trying to explain some grammar to a guy fromin an English topicthread fromon a social network (vk).
He was asking whether we should use "address" or "address to" in athe sentence "She turned to address the man on her left".
I explained that "to" is used when you want to address "something" to someone else. But if you address directly someone directly, with nothing else involved, then you don't have to use "to". But as I'm a little bit confused inabout linguistic terms (and I talk in that topic inuse English in that thread), I want to ask you about it.
HowWhat is the first usage called? (I mean things like "Explain to", "Address to").
And howwhat is the second one called? ("Explain smth", "Address smth").

The first usage is transitive, meaning it requires only a direct object. The second is ditransitive, meaning that it requires both a direct object and an indirect object. Give is the prototypical ditransitive verb in English, although it also has intransitive (e.g. "We gave at the office") and transitive (e.g. "She gives good advice") usages. Address is unlike give in that the indirect object must be indicated with to; *"He addressed all Americans the speech" is not grammatical in contemporary English.

LifeDeath wrote:I tried to say that in the second case there's a kind of adjunct (some extra information about what she addressed to him (speech)).

Technically speaking, that's not an adjunct. If you remove it, the sentence (*"She addressed to the man") is no longer grammatical.

LifeDeath wrote:And in the first there's not such thing. The subject ("the man") is taken by the object ("She") directly

You've got subject and object reversed here. In "She addressed the man", "she" is the subject of the verb and "the man" is the direct object.

LifeDeath wrote:and there's no kind of relationship between them, that's why we don't use "to" (unlike in the second case)

I'm not sure what you mean by "no kind of relationship". It's one of the most straightforward kinds of relationships in sentential grammar, the relationship of subject to direct object.

In terms of themantic relations, "she" is also the agent (the performer of the action) and "the man" is probably best classed as a recipient (the receiver of the action). If "the speech" is included, it's a theme (the undergoer of the action which does not experience the change in state that a patient does).
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Re: I have some questions

Postby LifeDeath » 2017-04-05, 12:58

linguoboy wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "no kind of relationship".

I think I was wrong at terms. By "relationship" I meant any kind of interaction (or cooperation).
Like in the sentence "She addressed the speech to the man" "the speech" is the interaction. The main element of the action. But I know I was wrong.

linguoboy wrote:In terms of themantic relations, "she" is also the agent (the performer of the action) and "the man" is probably best classed as a recipient (the receiver of the action).

I was wondering, what was the difference between the subject in a sentence and the agent. I noticed that sentences that I came up with in Russian had one element for both the subject and the agent. In English Wiki I read that it's usually in passive constructions that those are different words in a sentence in English. Is that the only case?

linguoboy wrote:"the man" is probably best classed as a recipient (the receiver of the action).

I thought it was what a "patient" is. Well, is there any difference between them? Because both seem like sentential elements upon which the action is being performed.

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Re: I have some questions

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-05, 16:26

LifeDeath wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "no kind of relationship".

I think I was wrong atin my use of terms. By "relationship" I meant any kind of interaction (or cooperation).


LifeDeath wrote:
linguoboy wrote:In terms of themantic relations, "she" is also the agent (the performer of the action) and "the man" is probably best classed as a recipient (the receiver of the action).

I was wondering, what was the difference between the subject in a sentence and the agent. I noticed that sentences that I came up with in Russian had one element for both the subject and the agent. In the English Wiki I read that it's usually in passive constructions that those are different words in a sentence in English. Is that the only case?

No, because to be an agent means to assert control. Look again at the link I sent you; it's pretty clear on this point.

LifeDeath wrote:
linguoboy wrote:"the man" is probably best classed as a recipient (the receiver of the action).

I thought that was what a "patient" is. Well, is there any difference between them? Because both seem like sentential elements upon which the action is being performed.

Once again, look at the link. The chart in the article quite clearly lays out the difference between patient and theme, with examples.
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Re: I have some questions

Postby LifeDeath » 2017-04-05, 16:33

Oh God. Didn't notice that they both are described there. Sorry.

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Re: I have some questions

Postby LifeDeath » 2017-04-09, 15:40

Can we use "worth" to talk about money costs?
Like "It is a good company, but I don't think it's worth two billion dollars"?

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Re: I have some questions

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-09, 15:49

LifeDeath wrote:Can we use "worth" to talk about money costsprices?
Like "It is a good company, but I don't think it's worth two billion dollars"?

That's its core meaning.
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Re: I have some questions

Postby LifeDeath » 2017-04-09, 16:03

linguoboy wrote:That's its core meaning.

Oh, that's interesting. Because I've usually seen it used with abstract things:
"It's worth trying".
"Do you think he's really worth being talked about so much?"


But then, in which way do you think it is more natural to ask?
"How much does that cake cost?" (Or "How much is that cake?")
Or
"How much is that cake worth?"

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Re: I have some questions

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-10, 4:27

LifeDeath wrote:But then, in which way do you think it is more natural to ask?
"How much does that cake cost?" (Or "How much is that cake?")
Or
"How much is that cake worth?"

These are two different questions:

"How much does that cake cost?" means "What is the price of that cake?", i.e. how much is someone charging for it?

"How much is that cake worth?" means "What is the market value of that cake?", i.e. how much could someone charge for it?

For instance, I could get a cake worth $100 for $50 because I'm friends with the baker. Or I could pay $50 for a cake worth only $20 at a bake sale where all revenue is being donated to a charitable cause.
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Re: I have some questions

Postby LifeDeath » 2017-04-12, 16:04

Okay thanks.

So I have two interesting questions about pronunciation today.
linguoboy wrote:Those aren't d's. You're talking about a well-studied phenomenon known as "tapping" or "flapping": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping. The sound in question is actually [ɾ], but it probably sounds like [d] to you since that's the closest equivalent in most varieties of German.

Do you know what symbol does the IPA have for Russian "r"? I suppose you know that it's completely different from the English one. You have to put the tip of your tongue to the place where upper teeth grow, and your tounge has to vibrate, tremble. I think it's kind of making about 10 "t" sounds per second. The reason why I'm asking about it, is because it seems to me that in the word "a lot", "about", and many others, which end at "t", the last consonant is pronounced like short Russian "r". Especially if the next word begins with a vowel. So you tongue acts like a whip, it hits the roof of your mouth, and in this momen a kind of "r" occurs. Do you notice that in the real English or is it just my misunderstanding? I assume that it can be observed when someone speaks slowly, as if thinking about something, like "Huh... I don't think about it alooooot". Again, I may record a couple of examples if you don't understand what I mean.

linguoboy wrote:Those aren't d's.

Well, don't you think that in some words those are actually d's? I think it is so if the previous sound is /r/ or /ɹ/. Like in the words "vertical", "article", etc. So when you sart to spell this word, your tongue pressures back deep in your mouth at the /ɹ/ sound. It's like compressing of a spring, so after /ɹ/ sound, your tongue realeses and moves forward hitting the alveolar ridge in your mouth. I think that's how such words are technically pronounced. And the sound happens to be the real /d/. Do you argee with that or not?

I also noticed an interesting phenomenon while asking this and trying to pronounce those words myself. I think that it can also be the /l/ sound instead of /d/ in those words (or at least something between /l/ and /d/). What do you think? I mean, you pronounce "vertical" with the /l/. Like "whirl" + /ɪkəl/. (Only "v" instead of "w").
Maybe it is possible in some dialects?

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Re: I have some questions

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-12, 16:30

LifeDeath wrote:Do you know what symbol does the IPA have for Russian "r"?

/r/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_phonology#Consonants)

LifeDeath wrote:I suppose you know that it's completely different from the English one. You have to put the tip of your tongue to the place where upper teeth grow

A.k.a. the "alveolar ridge"

LifeDeath wrote:and your toungue has to vibrate, tremble. I think it's kind of making about 10 "t" sounds per second.

You've just described the production of an alveolar trill.

LifeDeath wrote:The reason why I'm asking about it, is because it seems to me that in the word "a lot", "about", and many others, which end at "t", the last consonant is pronounced like short Russian "r". Especially if the next word begins with a vowel. So you tongue acts like a whip, it hits the roof of your mouth, and in this moment a kind of "r" occurs.

In other words, intervocalic alveolar flapping takes place.

LifeDeath wrote:Do you notice that in the real English or is it just my misunderstanding? I assume that it can be observed when someone speaks slowly, as if thinking about something, like "Huh... I don't think about it alooooot". Again, I may record a couple of examples if you don't understand what I mean.

No, if someone speaks slowly, then flapping generally doesn't take place.

LifeDeath wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Those aren't d's.
Well, don't you think that in some words those are actually d's?

Yes, but I was referring specifically to the two words Babbsagg mentioned in a previous post, better and button. Context is important.

LifeDeath wrote:I think it is so if the previous sound is /r/ or /ɹ/. Like in the words "vertical", "article", etc. So when you start to spell this word, your tongue pressures back deep in your mouth at the /ɹ/ sound. It's like compressing of a spring, so after /ɹ/ sound, your tongue releases and moves forward hitting the alveolar ridge in your mouth. I think that's how such words are technically pronounced. And the sound happens to be the real /d/. Do you agree with that or not?

I don't think you understand how a /d/ is produced in English. Both /t/ and /d/ (and /r/ for that matter) are alveolar sounds for the vast majority of English-speakers. They are distinguished primarily by a feature called voice-onset time. /d/ is typically partially voiced whereas /t/ (apart from flapping) is wholly unvoiced and often aspirated as well. What you might be hearing is a lack of aspiration on the /t/ in these words and mistaking that for voicing.

LifeDeath wrote:I also noticed an interesting phenomenon while asking this and trying to pronounce those words myself. I think that it can also be the /l/ sound instead of /d/ in those words (or at least something between /l/ and /d/). What do you think? I mean, you pronounce "vertical" with the /l/. Like "whirl" + /ɪkəl/. (Only "v" instead of "w").
Maybe it is possible in some dialects?

Maybe. I don't have it in mine and I don't recall hearing it from other speakers.
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Re: I have some questions

Postby LifeDeath » 2017-04-13, 15:14

Thanks.
linguoboy wrote:
LifeDeath wrote:Do you know what symbol does the IPA have for Russian "r"?
/r/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_p ... Consonants)

It is strange, because I thought that it was the English "r" sound, which is completely different. When you mentioned [ɾ] in one of the previous messages of yours, I found that video, and figured out that it seems like the Russian one more, that the English "r".

linguoboy wrote:No, if someone speaks slowly, then flapping generally doesn't take place.

I actually noticed an example in this video at 1:01, maybe he said it too quiet, but isn't the /ɾ/ sound heard here a little bit?

linguoboy wrote:I don't think you understand how a /d/ is produced in English. Both /t/ and /d/ (and /r/ for that matter) are alveolar sounds for the vast majority of English-speakers. They are distinguished primarily by a feature called voice-onset time. /d/ is typically partially voiced whereas /t/ (apart from flapping) is wholly unvoiced and often aspirated as well. What you might be hearing is a lack of aspiration on the /t/ in these words and mistaking that for voicing.

In fact, I learned about that in this video. And I remember how you said that everybody can make himself a teacher. So maybe that womam was incorrect, anyway I'll try to check information twice before taking it to memory next time.


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