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Serafín
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Serafín » 2015-08-26, 13:55

loqu wrote:I met yesterday at work a guy who pronounced about something like [əˈbɛɪt] (sorry for the bad IPA, I'm not too versed in English sounds) and fine [fɑɪn] or sth like that. He's most definitely European, but I'd like to know what accent has those traits. Does any of you know?

Thank you.

fine [fɑɪn] is a, if not the, standard pronunciation in contemporary southern British English. The diphthong that, back in the early 20th century, Daniel Jones described as "[aɪ]" has now become [ɑɪ].

I have no idea where people say [əˈbɛɪt].

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-10-07, 15:47

Can someone understand what Slavoj Zizek is saying at 0:11 of this video?

"if you have a stupid uncle... half? sinwhat?..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53GUygLogwA

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby miae » 2015-10-08, 10:42

IpseDixit wrote:"if you have a stupid uncle... half? sinwhat?..."

Half-senile?

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby KarlDerKaefer » 2015-10-18, 8:08

When would you use the expression "Thank you very much, I appreciate it." ? What is its connotation?
Do you really mean it and 'appreciate' when you use it or is it just a random phrase without any deeper meaning? Is it only used in formal situations or do you also use it with friends for example?

In my language (German) 'Thank you very much, I appreciate it' often seems to be translated as 'Vielen Dank, sehr freundlich von Ihnen' ('very friendly of you'), which sounds very formal and without any deeper or honest meaning. Sometimes the 'I appreciate it' is not translated at all. That's why I was wondering how the phrase is actually used in English.

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby linguoboy » 2015-10-19, 17:55

KarlDerKaefer wrote:When would you use the expression "Thank you very much, I appreciate it." ? What is its connotation? Do you really mean it and 'appreciate' when you use it or is it just a random phrase without any deeper meaning? Is it only used in formal situations or do you also use it with friends for example?

It's just an ordinary polite phrase to me, as evidenced by the fact that it's frequently clipped to 'preciate it. You can use it instead of "Thanks" or "Thank you" as well as alongside it.
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby linguoboy » 2015-11-23, 1:31

My husband is reading a thriller by Quentin Bates, a writer from the south of England who lives in Iceland. A brief description of a character's housework features this baffling passage: "but by the time she had washed and dried the clothes and given the kitchen a birthday, she realised there was precious little left of the morning." (My emphasis.)

Is this some kind of twee British expression that I've just never run across before? Or is it possibly an attempt to render an Icelandic expression literally into English?
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Kekāne‘āhē » 2015-11-29, 20:47

loqu wrote:I met yesterday at work a guy who pronounced about something like [əˈbɛɪt] (sorry for the bad IPA, I'm not too versed in English sounds) and fine [fɑɪn] or sth like that. He's most definitely European, but I'd like to know what accent has those traits. Does any of you know?

Thank you.


Is there any possibility he pronounces it [əˈbɛyt] rather than [əˈbɛɪt]? I know someone from Ireland who fronts the end of the diphthong to something like [əˈbɛyt] (I'm not sure if it's that fronted though). Due to Canadian raising, the use of [ɛ] as the nucleus of this diphthong is common in Ireland, Scottland, Canada, and limited parts of the US, though I'm unaware of this occurring anywhere else.

I think [fɑɪn] is fairly standard for "fine", though in North America, I think most people would use something more like [faɪn]

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby linguoboy » 2015-11-29, 21:22

Kekāne‘āhē wrote:Due to Canadian raising, the use of [ɛ] as the nucleus of this diphthong is common in Ireland, Scottland, Canada, and limited parts of the US, though I'm unaware of this occurring anywhere else.

It's "Canadian raising", not "Canadian fronting". You seem to be confusing (front unrounded) [ɛ] with (central unrounded) [ɜ]. Some varieties of Dublin English may have a starting point that far forward, but it's not common to Irish English as a whole and completely absent from Scottish English and Canadian English.

My paternal grandparents had a similar diphthong in their speech, but as an allophone of /ow/, not /aw/. (For instance, the way my grandma said coat was [kʰɘ̟ʊt].)
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Kekāne‘āhē » 2015-11-29, 22:27

linguoboy wrote:
Kekāne‘āhē wrote:Due to Canadian raising, the use of [ɛ] as the nucleus of this diphthong is common in Ireland, Scottland, Canada, and limited parts of the US, though I'm unaware of this occurring anywhere else.

It's "Canadian raising", not "Canadian fronting". You seem to be confusing (front unrounded) [ɛ] with (central unrounded) [ɜ]. Some varieties of Dublin English may have a starting point that far forward, but it's not common to Irish English as a whole and completely absent from Scottish English and Canadian English.

My paternal grandparents had a similar diphthong in their speech, but as an allophone of /ow/, not /aw/. (For instance, the way my grandma said coat was [kʰɘ̟ʊt].)


When I mentioned Canadian raising, I was indeed referring to raising, not fronting (the fronting I mentioned is a separate issue affecting the end of the diphthong, which is [u] in most dialects, but was described as [ɪ] in the original post). I am likely wrong in saying Irish English uses [ɛ] rather than [ɜ] at the start of the diphthong (in which case, thanks for correcting me), but my main point was that this is raised relative to the [a] that's more often used in this diphthong. Also, the guy from Ireland I mentioned in my previous post is indeed from Dublin, which may be why I said the diphthong used [ɛ] rather than [ɜ]. (Also, in my speech, which has Canadian raising, I use [ɛ] rather than [ɜ] in the raised diphthong, except perhaps in unstressed positions)

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby linguoboy » 2015-11-29, 23:28

Kekāne‘āhē wrote:(Also, in my speech, which has Canadian raising, I use [ɛ] rather than [ɜ] in the raised diphthong, except perhaps in unstressed positions)

You're absolutely sure about this? The sort of advanced fronting is something I associated with the Mid-Atlantic, not at all with Canada. We're talking about the diphthong in about, right? Lexical set MOUTH? Are there any well-known Canadians you can point to who share this feature?

(The pronunciation I'm talking about can be heard in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV62X21V8Vw. Note the way she says "home" at 2:50. [/aw/ is also fronted in this dialect, as you can tell from her pronunciation of "house", but without any significant raising.].)
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Kekāne‘āhē » 2015-12-01, 0:17

linguoboy wrote:"We're talking about the diphthong in about, right? Lexical set MOUTH? Are there any well-known Canadians you can point to who share this feature?"


I'm from New Hampshire, but here's an example of a Canadian who uses the same MOUTH diphthong as me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nw3SNzqrOM
Listen to how he pronounces "out" (such as at ~0:29, 0:33, 1:00, and 1:40). It sounds fronted to me. What do you think?

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby linguoboy » 2015-12-01, 1:16

Kekāne‘āhē wrote:I'm from New Hampshire, but here's an example of a Canadian who uses the same MOUTH diphthong as me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nw3SNzqrOM
Listen to how he pronounces "out" (such as at ~0:29, 0:33, 1:00, and 1:40). It sounds fronted to me. What do you think?

You mean fronted to [ɛ]? Absolutely not.
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Kekāne‘āhē » 2015-12-03, 4:36

linguoboy wrote:
Kekāne‘āhē wrote:I'm from New Hampshire, but here's an example of a Canadian who uses the same MOUTH diphthong as me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nw3SNzqrOM
Listen to how he pronounces "out" (such as at ~0:29, 0:33, 1:00, and 1:40). It sounds fronted to me. What do you think?

You mean fronted to [ɛ]? Absolutely not.


Huh, It sounds exactly like the DRESS vowel to me. Perhaps that it's immediately followed by /u/ deceives me by making it seem fronted by comparison. Now I'm curious to hear someone who does use [ɛ] here - do you know of anyone?

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby linguoboy » 2015-12-03, 15:33

Kekāne‘āhē wrote:Huh, It sounds exactly like the DRESS vowel to me. Perhaps that it's immediately followed by /u/ deceives me by making it seem fronted by comparison. Now I'm curious to hear someone who does use [ɛ] here - do you know of anyone?

In English? I don't think so. The diphthong [ɛʊ̯] is very familiar to me from Catalan, and it doesn't sound like this.

Do you have the Canadian shift in your speech? There seems to be some disagreement on whether /ɛ/ is being lowered or retracted in the speech of young Ontarians, but either way it is being brought closer to /ʌ/, which according to some accounts is being both lowered and fronted. So it could well be that the first element in your MOUTH diphthong sounds identical to your DRESS vowel, but your DRESS vowel isn't necessarily [ɛ].
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Luís » 2015-12-05, 12:27

If an American English speaker consistently pronounces /st/ as /ʃt/, where is he most likely to come from?
My guess would be somewhere around NYC, but I'm not really sure... :hmm:
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Car » 2015-12-05, 12:42

I found some interesting discussions about it, the first one even involves UniLang members and is referring to our forum. :)

http://www.antimoon.com/forum/t10923.htm
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... p?t=548320
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Luís » 2015-12-05, 12:59

Thanks Silvia! :D
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Car » 2015-12-05, 15:22

You're welcome!
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Discussion Group

Postby linguoboy » 2015-12-05, 23:00

Luís wrote:If an American English speaker consistently pronounces /st/ as /ʃt/, where is he most likely to come from?
My guess would be somewhere around NYC, but I'm not really sure... :hmm:

I'm glad that first link clarified that the change only happens before /r/. Because my answer was going to be that they most likely come from abroad.

IMD, /st/ > [ʃt] was a humourous affectation we adopted as adolescents, e.g. shtuff for stuff. But it applied to other /sC/ clusters as well, e.g. Shpike (a nickname), shnarf, shmoosh.
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Re: Discussion Group

Postby Luís » 2015-12-06, 11:16

Yes, you're right. I guess I generalized it a bit too much... :)

But what about after /r/? This guy pronounces /ʃt/ in words such as "first" or "worst" as well.
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