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Postby Patricia » 2003-05-11, 17:09

Since we all use English as our "lingua franca" at Unilang, we can safely assume that we all have a good knowledge and understanding of the language. But there are always some doubts (especially for non-native speakers) which need to be clarified. That's why I create this topic: our doubts regarding English can be placed here, or we can request for corrections to our translations into English or anything that has to do with the English Language. :)

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-05-12, 16:26

I think this section can have this utility: everything we write here should be corrected (we know we do not feel like correcting others' mistakes, neither at the forum nor at the chat, therefore I think this section would be the right place for improving our English). So, I want you to start by correcting all mistakes I made in this message ;).
Learning Georgian, Mandarin Chinese, Russian and Papiamentu from scratch. Trying to brush up my Norwegian up to an advanced level.

Guest

Postby Guest » 2003-05-12, 22:11

OK, here goes, though it isn't easy to find mistakes here:

Pat: you request something, not "request to" something. You can say "a request for help", but here request is a noun, not a verb. And corrections "OF" translations. Prepositions are always tricky. And language without a capital.

E}{pug: I can't spot any mistakes here, but personally I would write "all the mistakes I made", on the basis that it sounds a bit better.

Sorry for being so scrutinous... :roll: But once I get hold of that red pen... :twisted:

geoff

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Postby Patricia » 2003-05-13, 2:08

Anonymous wrote:Pat: you request something, not "request to" something. You can say "a request for help", but here request is a noun, not a verb. And corrections "OF" translations. Prepositions are always tricky. And language without a capital.


Thanx for the corrections, Geoff! :)

I didn't know about "request", or if I did, I didn't remember.
"Language" with a capital....hhhhhhmmmm I guess I write the name of my course "English Language" too often..... :wink:

froggie

Postby froggie » 2003-05-13, 13:33

Hey I will post my BA thesis here and you can correct as much as you want! lol
:P :P :P
froggie

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-05-13, 16:22

Thanks for the corrections, geoff. I only thought you'd find many more mistakes...I might have just forgotten this "the". I have some texts i really would like someone to correct, Proy said they were terrible, and if even Proy says they had so many mistakes, then we should take it seriously. They are part of a course I'm writing, it's a course for teaching people how to make an online language course in their own. I'll tell you when I upload the first pages, I plan to do it soon. By now, you all should keep correcting my messages ;).
Learning Georgian, Mandarin Chinese, Russian and Papiamentu from scratch. Trying to brush up my Norwegian up to an advanced level.

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Postby geoff_ » 2003-05-13, 21:35

Expug: only two mistakes this time.

You do something "on" your own, not "in" your own.

And not "By now...", but "For now...", in this case.

Correcting peoples' posts is one thing, but maybe some people actually have questions about the English language??? Certainly at advanced level it can get quite tricky.

geoff

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Postby Patricia » 2003-05-14, 1:29

What I find interesting is that the more I master the language, the more mistakes I make.... :?:

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Postby jonathan » 2003-05-14, 5:20

Patricia wrote:What I find interesting is that the more I master the language, the more mistakes I make.... :?:


Yeah but don't worry-- NATIVE speakers make more mistakes than you guys!!! :D
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CURRENTLY ATTEMPTING: English, 中文 (普通话), 日本語, tiếng Việt.

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Postby Car » 2003-05-14, 9:30

Patricia wrote:What I find interesting is that the more I master the language, the more mistakes I make.... :?:


I noticed that I sometimes have problems with the tenses. And during my last two exams, I nearly had to look up every preposition because I wasn't sure at all...

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Postby Patricia » 2003-05-14, 10:26

Car wrote:I noticed that I sometimes have problems with the tenses.


Well, you should see me writing then! I've developed this "new" tendency to "regularize" irregular verbs, which turns out in things like "standed" (for "stood").:shock: :shock:

Question: What's the pattern for "tendency to"?? + infinitive or + gerund? :?: (I'm to lazy to go pick up my Swam. :wink:)


bluepxl wrote: Yeah but don't worry-- NATIVE speakers make more mistakes than you guys!!!


My professor used to say that when you start making the same mistakes as native speakers you are on the right track. :wink: ...but I'm a hopless perfectionist when it comes to language learning. :)

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Postby Psi-Lord » 2003-05-14, 14:37

Patricia wrote:
Car wrote:I noticed that I sometimes have problems with the tenses.

Well, you should see me writing then! I've developed this "new" tendency to "regularize" irregular verbs, which turns out in things like "standed" (for "stood").:shock: :shock:

Reminds me of my English teacher trying to kill me, years ago, after reading a composition I'd written — for some reason I could never understand, I totally forgot to add the 3rd person singular -s to the verbs!... :P 'He do', 'he go', 'she make', 'it bark', etc. Oh well... At least you do get to learn never to repeat such mistakes again. :) As another English teacher used to say, you learn a lot more from having mistakes corrected than from not making any yourself.
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Postby NulNuk » 2003-05-14, 14:58

NulNuk never make lenguistic mistakes ,NulNuk just fixin lenguages problems !!! :0}
Every thing I write, wrote, or will write, its in my own opinion, for I have no other.
Release me from the duty of being polite and remind you, "I made use of my own brain".

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-05-14, 15:32

Hey teachers,

Here are the pages I want you to correct:
http://www.unilang.org/courses/ofcourse/index.htm and
http://www.unilang.org/courses/ofcourse/start01.htm

It's a work for Unilang, so I hope you don't mind...

Have fun!
Learning Georgian, Mandarin Chinese, Russian and Papiamentu from scratch. Trying to brush up my Norwegian up to an advanced level.

geoff_

Postby geoff_ » 2003-05-14, 15:45

Hello dear visitor,

This is not a language course. This is a course for all those who want to create a language course and don't know how, for those who want to find a way to contribute with their language skills.

Our goal is to teach you how to run a language course, how to organize the content and how to present it to your audience in the clearest and most objective way. Good luck!

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-05-22, 19:44

Hello friends,

I've finished two more pages and I'd like you to correct them. These are the links:

http://www.unilang.org/courses/ofcourse/start02.htm
http://www.unilang.org/courses/ofcourse/start03.htm
Learning Georgian, Mandarin Chinese, Russian and Papiamentu from scratch. Trying to brush up my Norwegian up to an advanced level.

τομάκιος

re: request to/for

Postby τομάκιος » 2003-05-22, 23:17

> request for corrections to our translations

BTW,

I don't think this is wrong, per se; I have seen "corrections to" used in English, and I believe it is fine.

Τομάκιος

re: E}{pugnator's link #1

Postby Τομάκιος » 2003-05-22, 23:41

Corrections & revisions to E}{pugnator's first link above. Some of these at least venture very much into realms of style, and therefore may be open to debate or even controversy.

>telling which sound conveys each letter

I think you may have accidentally transposed "letter" and "sound",
because "telling which letter conveys each sound" makes more sense.
(Or you could say, "telling which sound is conveyed by each letter."

The use of the verb "telling" in this fashion sounds to me a bit
(and I'm not sure how to put this) less literate. That is, it gives
me the impression that the writer is not so educated. I think that is
a false impression, but, nonetheless, I suggest altering it to, eg,
"explaining which sound is conveyed by which letter(s)."

> Other courses prefer to start

(Perhaps I should have first asked what level or type of criticism
you desire.) Someone like Edwin Newman might caustically point out
that people, not courses, have preferences.

> to start telling some useful

I would expect to see this phrased as "to start giving some useful"

> It includes the Greek, Russian and Korean alphabet (and some grammar) courses

I'm not sure if this is actually grammatically incorrect, but I
definitely criticize it stylistically. I find it jarring to meet
"alphabet" in the singular here, when I expected it to be plural. It
is singular because it is the first half a noun phrase which is split
by a parenthetical expression; I definitely would not split that
noun phrase ("alphabet courses") in this fashion. In fact, I would
reauthor it in this way:

"It includes the Greek, Russian and Korean alphabets, and some grammar
courses as well."

(In my revision, the courses are not specifically Korean; I
could not tell if they were meant to be so in the original.)

> Its picture dramas

Rather than the noun phrase "picture drama", which is unfamiliar to me,
how about using "pictoral drama" ? (You, or others, may not agree
that mine is easier to understand, however!)

> linking them to their sound

I think (but do not swear) that this should be "linking them to their
sounds". (However, I am not certain, because the grammar of "their"
has been somewhat muddled in recent years by alterations to reduce
gender bias, I think.)

> After learning two or three alphabets, learning the next one becomes a pretty hard work.

I am confused by this paragraph. I am not certain if you mean what you
wrote, or if you have used "alphabet" where you meant "letter". The
middle sentence of the paragraph uses "letter", but the other sentences
use "alphabet". (An alphabet is a set of letters, but, you no doubt know
this!)

> Another good way of making new letters easier to be memorized

I think it is simpler to understand as
"Another good way of making new letters easier to be memorize"
and still simpler would be
"Another good way of making it easier to memorize new letters"

> Let us clarify it with an example

The use of the pronoun "it" here jars my ear, although I'm not sure
I can explain why. I would say: "Let us clarify this with an example"
(or, of course, "An example will help clarify this").

> making the alphabet teaching as easy and funny as possible

If you mean as easy for the student as possible (as opposed to, as
easy for the teacher as possible), then I think it would be clearer
to refer to the "learning" rather than the teaching. Also, do you
mean "fun" here, rather than "funny" ? (They are not synonyms, and
"funny" here jars my ears.)

PS: "the alphabet learning" sounds odd, so I would make this
"make learning the alphabet as easy..."

> create some in your own.

I never see it phrased this way; I always see "create some of your own."

τομάκιος

Detailed criticism of next link by E}{pugnator

Postby τομάκιος » 2003-05-23, 0:06

>In order to teach pronunciation in an effective way

[style]
I would trim this to:
"In order to teach pronunciation effectively"
(I have been taught that conciseness in writing is a virtue.)


> without a necessary knowledge

[grammar]
I don't think knowledge can be treated as a singular noun.
I would alter this to:
"without necessary knowledge"

> E.g.: As if

[style]
This is redundant ("as if" means the same as "E.g.").

> some pronunciation minor changes

[word choice]
I find this to be an awkward noun phrase. I would revise it to
"some minor changes in pronunciation".


> can grasp by themselves during the course or that are the same as in English

[style]
I would put a comma before "or" here, to avoid the reader starting out misparsing this as "during the course or (during) ...".

> you say at the pronunciation guide

[word choice]
Use "you say in the pronunciation guide".

> divide the pronunciation guide in lessons

[word choice]
I think that we use "divide in" when it is followed by an object expressing a subdivision, such as "divide in half". Otherwise we use "divide into", as "divide into lessons". This would mean taking the guide and breaking it into (new) smaller parts, which you then call lessons. If, on the other hand, the lessons already exist, then we would say "divide among the lessons" or "divide into the lessons".

> with very regular spelling, let's say, German or Indonesian

[word choice]
"let's say" is too informal for written English, I think.

> Tell the pronunciation of the pure letters

[word choice]
This sounds non-native to me. I would expect "Give the pronunciation..." from a native.

> vowels/consonants combinations

[singular/plural]
This sounds like a singular/plural mismatch to me. I recommend "vowel/consonant combinations".

> explanation about sounds

[word choice]
This sounds non-native to me. I would expect "explanation of sounds" from a native.

> are a clue on how to

[word choice]
This sounds non-native to me. I would expect "are a clue how to" from a native--or more likely, "give a clue how to".

> using the same letters' combination

[word choice]
This sounds non-native to me. I would expect "using the same combination of letters" from a native.

> Below it's an example

[typo]
I think this was a typo for "Below is an example".

> First you have the text in Spanish

[style]
My first inclination is to revise this to "First we give the text in Spanish", but you've used the 2per.s. throughout, so perhaps "First you give the text in Spanish" ?

> You can see that the transcription in Italian resembles much more the Spanish text than the English one?

[style]
I'm not accustomed to seeing a statement followed by a question mark in written English, although read aloud it sounds quite plausible for spoken English.



**************

Disclaimer: I am a native American English speaker; I have little knowledge of other dialects. Also, I welcome criticisms of, or questions about, my revisions; I think that the stylistic matters especially may be open to debate.

τομάκιος

re: much earlier post

Postby τομάκιος » 2003-05-23, 0:14

> I only thought you'd find many more mistakes...

The "only" here looks non-native. Here are some that I might write:

"I had thought you'd find many more mistakes..."
"I thought you'd find many more mistakes..."
"I expected you'd find many more mistakes..."
"I had expected you'd find many more mistakes..."
"I expected you to find many more mistakes..."
"I anticipated that you would find many more mistakes..."
"I anticipated there would be many more mistakes..."


But, not "thought you to" and not "anticipated you to" !

Well, not "thought you to" in this case, but I can construct a case in which it fits: "I thought you to be the bill collector, so I locked the door and climbed this tree. "


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