School uniforms

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Lada
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Re: School uniforms

Postby Lada » 2013-10-29, 18:31

As I started going to school in USSR, we had uniform.

Everyday look
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Holiday look
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Boys looked the same AFAIK
Image

* Other countries which have abolished it now plan to bring it back
* Private schools still have uniforms all over the world.

Those two are no real arguments. Besides, what countries exactly?

Russia :para:
When I was 9, the uniform was cancelled and now it was revived. It's obligatory to wear a uniform since 2013 school year, however every school decides how the uniform must look like.

meidei wrote:
To me that sounds like it's very much directed at girls, and that they should know their place and dress modestly.


It is. There's no concept of male modelling in Cyprus, so the term refers to girls exclusively.

I remember my school years without uniform and boys were much wilder than girls - there were open neo-nazis, football ultras, punks and all the sort of marginals who had their own "modeling" or style. These groups fighted with each other pretty often so I guess "modeling" for boys can be applied sometimes though in another sense.

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Re: School uniforms

Postby md0 » 2013-10-29, 18:50

I remember my school years without uniform and boys were much wilder than girls - there were open neo-nazis, football ultras, punks and all the sort of marginals who had their own "modeling" or style.


There's this concept:
Girls dress to impress (others)
Boys dress to express (themselves)

So, at least in my time, from 1998 to 2010, modelling was clear as day that modelling meant girls dressing in manner to impress other girls and to attract boys.
And boys expressing themselves was far more tolerated than girls doing, well, anything. As a (male) professor of mine used to put it "In the end, a boy will swear, drink and smoke, that's inevitable even if it's not good. But I see girls smoking *sobbing* that's unnatural. *more sobbing* That's not the way it is supposed to be *sobsob* Girls should be tender, caring and soft-spoken. Girls who smoke and swear are offending your gender my female students... What happens to them in the future? What man would care about them when they are so rough? *sobsob*" (He was honestly sad about this)

Now, young men nowadays do seem to subscribe to fashion in a sense similar than girls (to out-fashion other men and to attract women). Ironically enough, they have made things like piercing and dyed hair parts of their masculine identity (ie, it's a macho thing to do) while the rules still prohibit it (because those who are making the rules are older than me, and when I still thing of men with dyed hair as feminine/gay because of cultural reflexes, imagine what goes in the minds of the 40-somethings who make and enforce the rules - they must think it's the end of the male-kind).
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Re: School uniforms

Postby Johanna » 2013-10-29, 18:56

Lada wrote:
meidei wrote:
Johanna wrote:To me that sounds like it's very much directed at girls, and that they should know their place and dress modestly.

It is. There's no concept of male modelling in Cyprus, so the term refers to girls exclusively.

I remember my school years without uniform and boys were much wilder than girls - there were open neo-nazis, football ultras, punks and all the sort of marginals who had their own "modeling" or style. These groups fighted with each other pretty often so I guess "modeling" for boys can be applied sometimes though in another sense.

That's a different thing I think, but I'm not sure where to put it among the arguments that meidei posted.

Nazi symbols are forbidden by law in Sweden, so people can't show up wearing those. But yeah, that wouldn't prevent neo-Nazis from coming up with some other way of distinguishing themselves from the rest, after all they did here in the 90's :(

I don't understand what's bad about having an alternative style per se though, be it punk or goth or whatever. As long as it's mostly a style (and what music you're into or some harmless hobby) and not about grouping with violent people, like neo-Nazis and football ultras.

But like I said, I don't think school uniforms are bad, full stop. But apart from what I said earlier about them being free and also not "one model fits all", you have to put a lot of thought into it, and make sure your decision is based on something solid. And in my eyes that's not the case in Cyprus, judging by what meidei says. While in the Russian case, if someone would argue that uniforms make violent groups a lot less visible, that's definitely something solid, and in my book a pretty good argument.
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Re: School uniforms

Postby johntm » 2013-10-29, 19:35

meidei wrote:Now, we had as learn the arguments in favour of retaining the uniform by heart, wanna hear? :P
I'm sure I've heard most, if not all, of them before, I just don't agree with them. Here's some semi-serious replies to some of them
* It's one of the ways students are equal - they have to wear the same clothes
I don't need clothes to tell me I'm worth the same as someone else.
* It obscures who's poor and who's rich [doubtful, since you can tell who only has one set and who has 7, and 100% cotton instead of synthetic]
My family wasn't rich, but I still had nice collared shirts and whatnot that I could wear and look nice--I didn't want to. I just wanted to be comfortable but presentable.

* Schools should not become arenas for modeling
Not wearing a uniform doesn't necessarily mean we're modeling.

* It saves time in the morning, removing the stress of deciding what to wear
Because I'm spending so much time in the morning figuring out which basketball shorts/jeans and t-shirt to wear, right?

* Uniformity does not mean everyone's the same, it's fashion that makes everyone the same
That's fucking dumb because the definition of uniformity is being the same (NB: Yes, I realize the Greek/Cypriot work for uniform may have different nuances in this context)
* Other countries which have abolished it now plan to bring it back
Plenty of countries do stupid shit and then stop doing stupid shit and then do the same stupid shit again, this isn't an argument.
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Re: School uniforms

Postby md0 » 2013-10-29, 19:42

(NB: Yes, I realize the Greek/Cypriot word for uniform may have different nuances in this context

Nope, it sounds just as stupid.
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Re: School uniforms

Postby Psi-Lord » 2013-10-29, 19:58

When I was in primary eight, one of our teachers had one of my classmates cut his hair, because, according to her, his constantly having to push his long fringe off his eyes was clearly making it harder for him to focus. Granted, it did help her have him do so that his mother was our deputy headteacher back then, and she was also friends with her. Yet, I remember being somewhat surprised a teacher could really go that far, which is to show that either we didn’t express ourselves so loudly yet (primary eight back then = 14 years old) or such things were not supposed to be any common, especially in a public school (or despite of that).

That same teacher would often complain about the girls’ skirts/shorts being way too shorter than the ‘usual’ four fingers above their knees, but I’m not really sure that was the case, and I don’t remember her complaining about it actually having any practical effects on their clothing choices.

Nowadays, it’s not unusual to see e.g. 10-year-old boys with pierced ears or dyed hair, but, although some teachers get shocked, there’s hardly any practical problem.
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Re: School uniforms

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-10-30, 8:16

Johanna wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:
Johanna wrote: No school uniforms in Sweden either, in fact I think they'd be illegal since that would mean that parents would have to pay for school-related stuff.

Not when the school would pay for it...?

Schools wouldn't do that, it's an extra cost that they certainly don't want.

Besides, if public schools did pay for uniforms, that would be the first thing to go when the next budget cut came around, and these days there's one pretty much every year. And private schools operate under similar conditions since the same laws apply to them as to public schools (that is, education must be free) so the only real income they have is the same amount of tax money per student that public schools get.


Yes, I was just saying that it wouldn't necessarily be illegal, I think it's very unlikely that schools would pay for uniforms as well. Though for a few years schools paid for the books here, so who knows.


Lada wrote:As I started going to school in USSR, we had uniform.

Everyday look
Image



Woah, bare legs, isn't that a bit cold in Russia (during winter...)?
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Re: School uniforms

Postby Lada » 2013-10-30, 17:22

Johanna wrote:While in the Russian case, if someone would argue that uniforms make violent groups a lot less visible, that's definitely something solid, and in my book a pretty good argument.

Violent groups are disease of big cities mainly and I doubt that uniform was revived because of that. Solid argument is saving country secular. Some regions are totally muslim where girls wear scarfs. The state doesn't want such things happen in public. There was a scandal when girls were forbidden to wear scarfs and their mothers started to give interviews blaming school administration in violation their rights and Russian constitution. So uniform seems to be an answer.
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:Woah, bare legs, isn't that a bit cold in Russia (during winter...)?

The picture was made in spring and in winter you wear warm tights, so it's not a problem to wear skirt :)

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Re: School uniforms

Postby Ashucky » 2013-10-31, 11:53

No school uniforms in Slovenia either. And as far as I know, such a system never existed here, counting Yugoslavia and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. At some point during Yugoslavia, primary schools had something like a smock/apron (I think it was similar to what IpseDixit said about Italy) but that never extended to high schools and universities. It would be also illegal for schools to decide what pupils should wear, anyway.

But there's always a lot of talk about introducing school uniforms, especially in the past few years with the crisis and all that. The main argument they put forward is that uniforms would hide the social/financial status of the pupils and their families so that they'd look equal, which is obviously ridiculous (and also largely discouraged by education experts/professionals).

One argument that often surfaces up is that school uniforms would (magically?) improve exam results and marks. This is an even more ridiculous argument than the one about equality. Why don't they just look at Finland and copy their education system? That would do much more about higher marks than school uniforms ... *gotta stop ranting now before this escalates*
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Re: School uniforms

Postby Sol Invictus » 2013-10-31, 18:19

Lada wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:Woah, bare legs, isn't that a bit cold in Russia (during winter...)?

The picture was made in spring and in winter you wear warm tights, so it's not a problem to wear skirt :)

My mom said something else about Soviet school uniforms

Here the issue gets discussed on occasions, but it seems the government has taken position that schools can choose what their students wear and if most parents and kids agree, why not? As such it has been getting popular lately. It seems that in many schools that have them they are not even mandatory to wear and/or there are various items of clothing that kids can combine and wear with other clothes and/or parent's can get/make their own clothes as long as they have schools logo and/or colors

Here's one example:
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Re: School uniforms

Postby JackFrost » 2013-11-01, 0:44

Sol Invictus wrote:My mom said something else about Soviet school uniforms

Like?
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Re: School uniforms

Postby Sol Invictus » 2013-11-01, 20:39

JackFrost wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:My mom said something else about Soviet school uniforms

Like?

That her legs were freezing. Isn't that obvious from the context?
Plus that big deal was made about slight deviation from norm (like quality of the fabric, odiously having uniform made from expensive material, helped the rich and the poor blend) IMHO making girls wear skirts alone is violation of womens rights, not to mention when it is cold in the winter

I went to read the thread after I posted yesterday. I was really surprised that bright colors are not considered appropriate in Cyprus, but jeans are :)

And also
Johanna wrote:No school uniforms in Sweden either, in fact I think they'd be illegal since that would mean that parents would have to pay for school-related stuff.

since somebody here made very serious point about education being free meaning parents shouldn't buy anything I wonder how anyone here is going about enforcing mandatory school uniforms (it's clear that some schools still make it a rule that kids need to wear them)

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Re: School uniforms

Postby md0 » 2013-11-01, 21:10

Sol Invictus wrote:I went to read the thread after I posted yesterday. I was really surprised that bright colors are not considered appropriate in Cyprus, but jeans are :)

Well, it's only dark blue jeans that are allowed.
Man, there sure don't like colours in our school, it's not just clothing or student's hair, the walls were also a bluish gray shade for as long as I can remember :shock:
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Re: School uniforms

Postby Johanna » 2013-11-01, 22:03

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:Yes, I was just saying that it wouldn't necessarily be illegal, I think it's very unlikely that schools would pay for uniforms as well. Though for a few years schools paid for the books here, so who knows.

If schools didn't pay for the books here, that would be illegal too. Books are necessary however, but school uniforms aren't.

And I'm talking about primary and secondary education, here. Once you move beyond that, there's student loan and benefits that are supposed to cover everything from rent, insurance, power, internet, TV to travels to and from your place of study and books and whatnot.

Lada wrote:
Johanna wrote:While in the Russian case, if someone would argue that uniforms make violent groups a lot less visible, that's definitely something solid, and in my book a pretty good argument.

Violent groups are disease of big cities mainly and I doubt that uniform was revived because of that. Solid argument is saving country secular. Some regions are totally muslim where girls wear scarfs. The state doesn't want such things happen in public. There was a scandal when girls were forbidden to wear scarfs and their mothers started to give interviews blaming school administration in violation their rights and Russian constitution. So uniform seems to be an answer.

Why are headscarves such a bad thing? Sure, if girls who don't want to wear one are forced to, it's very bad, but it's also equally bad if girls who do want to wear one are forbidden to. Also, it's (mostly) men from the majority society (in this case Russian) and (mostly) men from the minority society (in this case Muslim minorities) using those who have no say in the matter at all to prove their point :(

Russian authorities: No headscarf!
Muslim elders in the village: Headscarf or you're seen as a dishonourable woman!

So, pray tell, how would a Muslim girl from such a village please both the local elders and the Russian authorities?

The Russian Federation is an empire, it's probably the epitome of the word "empire" even, if you look at how many ethnic groups it encompasses both today and hostoraically. And as such it contains more ethnicities than any other country on Earth, and those ethnicities have all of those different beliefs, from Shamanism to Abrahamic religions.

Anyway, the word "secularism" doesn't mean "get rid of religion in the public sphere altogether", it means "don't ever base laws on religious teachings unless they happen to coincide with human rights.

Aslo, AFAIK, in Russia, the Orthodox Church is very powerful, so the country isn't really secular, and the secularism thing is only ever brought up when it comes to other faiths and churches. I do hope I am wrong, but from what I've seen, I don't think I am :(
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Re: School uniforms

Postby Lada » 2013-11-02, 17:45

Sol Invictus wrote:
JackFrost wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:My mom said something else about Soviet school uniforms

Like?

That her legs were freezing.

There was such thing like wool leggings. Popular clothes for girls even now.
Johanna wrote:Why are headscarves such a bad thing?

It's not a bad thing. It's just inappropriate for secular state. If you want to wear hijab, you can go to muslim school, just like if you want to wear traditional orthodox women clothes (actually orthodox women wear headscarf too, long skirt, no make up) go to orthodox school.
Russian authorities: No headscarf!
Muslim elders in the village: Headscarf or you're seen as a dishonourable woman!

Every school selects its own uniform, if school decides that headscarf is part of uniform, that's not a problem I think.
I do hope I am wrong, but from what I've seen, I don't think I am :(

What have you seen?

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Re: School uniforms

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-11-02, 18:29

Johanna wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:Yes, I was just saying that it wouldn't necessarily be illegal, I think it's very unlikely that schools would pay for uniforms as well. Though for a few years schools paid for the books here, so who knows.

If schools didn't pay for the books here, that would be illegal too. Books are necessary however, but school uniforms aren't.

And I'm talking about primary and secondary education, here. Once you move beyond that, there's student loan and benefits that are supposed to cover everything from rent, insurance, power, internet, TV to travels to and from your place of study and books and whatnot.



Wow... Though I think it's a good thing when schoolbooks are free, the thought that the state would give you enough money for basically everything sounds so... unlikely to me. And Scandinavian, haha! Though it's possible to loan money here as well, but I never did that. Most people here have got to work when they study.
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Re: School uniforms

Postby Johanna » 2013-11-04, 19:49

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:
Johanna wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:Yes, I was just saying that it wouldn't necessarily be illegal, I think it's very unlikely that schools would pay for uniforms as well. Though for a few years schools paid for the books here, so who knows.

If schools didn't pay for the books here, that would be illegal too. Books are necessary however, but school uniforms aren't.

And I'm talking about primary and secondary education, here. Once you move beyond that, there's student loan and benefits that are supposed to cover everything from rent, insurance, power, internet, TV to travels to and from your place of study and books and whatnot.

Wow... Though I think it's a good thing when schoolbooks are free, the thought that the state would give you enough money for basically everything sounds so... unlikely to me. And Scandinavian, haha! Though it's possible to loan money here as well, but I never did that. Most people here have got to work when they study.

Most of it (2/3) is in the form of a loan, so you have to pay that part back though ;)

But yeah, it's to make everyone who wants to to be able to study, and there's also the idea that if people have to work in order to support themselves during their semesters, there would be a lot more drop-outs, and that in turn would mean lots and lots of money wasted, a lot more than the benefits part costs the state.

Also, you only get loan and benefits for the semesters, so you still have to find work during summer, and many do work some during the semesters as well in order to have a little more money than about the same as someone living on welfare gets. Besides, when you live on welfare, you're not more or less forced to buy several expensive books every six months.
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Re: School uniforms

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-11-04, 21:54

IMHO making girls wear skirts alone is violation of womens rights
what
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Re: School uniforms

Postby Varislintu » 2013-11-05, 12:04

mōdgethanc wrote:
IMHO making girls wear skirts alone is violation of womens rights
what


I think she means if wearing a skirt is obligatory and has no alternatives.

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Re: School uniforms

Postby md0 » 2013-11-05, 12:21

It is. I didn't notice exactly when girls in Cyprus got the right to wear trousers in school (probably middle school), but if they tried to take that away now, they would fail. Girls love their trousers.
On the other hand, it doesn't even cross anyone's mind that this freedom also apply in the reverse.
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