Do women exist?

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Varislintu
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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Varislintu » 2013-10-06, 16:43

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
Lada wrote:Import real women if you don't have them. But these species are not so stupid. They will go only in case you got real men. Do you?


1 No, Swedish men are not real men these days.

2 There are women in Sweden, but it is usually frowned upon to act as if they form a category of their own, different from men.


Regarding #2: But what does that meeeeeean? :) Act how? Put some meat on the bones of your complaint here. "Women" and "men" (or "real women" and "real men") not as biological beings but as targets of behaviour that is not afforded to both groups similarly are not obvious things that need no description.

Ciarán12

Re: Do women exist?

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-10-06, 17:08

Varislintu wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:2 There are women in Sweden, but it is usually frowned upon to act as if they form a category of their own, different from men.


Regarding #2: But what does that meeeeeean? :) Act how? Put some meat on the bones of your complaint here. "Women" and "men" (or "real women" and "real men") not as biological beings but as targets of behaviour that is not afforded to both groups similarly are not obvious things that need no description.


I don't really like the phrasing of the position being put forward. It's like my complaint with "Feminism": it's a case of nominclature. Can't we just say that there are such things as men and women in the biological sense, but just be smart enough to realise that both should be given the same opportunities, that society as it is now engenders certain behavioural norms which is something we should endevour to eliminate, that people should stop thinking of biological gender as an important aspect of a person's personality or base assumptions of their behaviour or opinions on that. Why do we have to say men and women don't exist? Are people really so dim that they can't process complex concepts without them being boiled down to a sound bite (and in the process blunt the nuances of the concept)?

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Jurgen Wullenwever
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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2013-10-06, 17:37

Varislintu wrote:But what does that meeeeeean? Act how? Put some meat on the bones of your complaint here.

Act, in the sense of "using language that labels individuals as belonging to specific sexes". It is allowed to use "kvinnlig präst" (female priest) and "kvinnlig lärare" (female teacher), but it is offensive to use "prästinna" (priestess) and "lärarinna" (teachress), since professional titles are supposed to be gender-neutral now.

Sports journalists seem to be the last ones to use female titles, such as "höjdhopperska".

And you might have heard about the "hen" crowd, who want a gender-neutral personal pronoun, and indoctrinate kindergarten children in gender-neutral behaviour and speech.

Ciarán12 wrote:both should be given the same opportunities

That is not on the agenda. Equal opportunities? In Sweden? No way!
The public talk is about the facade, not the interior. People might have the same opportunities, but the result is still a statistic difference between the two groups, regarding income and types of work.

Ciarán12 wrote:Why do we have to say men and women don't exist? Are people really so dim that they can't process complex concepts without them being boiled down to a sound bite (and in the process blunt the nuances of the concept)?

It seems to be an insult to claim that someone is a woman.
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Re: Do women exist?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-10-06, 18:28

No, Swedish men are not real men these days.
What are "real men" and at what point did Swedish men stop being them?
Ciarán12 wrote:Can't we just say that there are such things as men and women in the biological sense, but just be smart enough to realise that both should be given the same opportunities, that society as it is now engenders certain behavioural norms which is something we should endevour to eliminate, that people should stop thinking of biological gender as an important aspect of a person's personality or base assumptions of their behaviour or opinions on that.
I only wish we could. Insofar as I am a "feminist", I'm that kind.
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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Marah » 2013-10-06, 18:31

What are "real men" and at what point did Swedish men stop being them?

Christianity, the end of the Vikings!
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2013-10-06, 18:39

mōdgethanc wrote:What are "real men" and at what point did Swedish men stop being them?

We are such soft wimps these days, since the 1970s or 1960s. The only macho guys are criminals and immigrants.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

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(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet, och har gett upp mejeriprodukter.)

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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Set » 2013-10-06, 21:41

Feminism isn't against men it's against the patriarchy. The patriarchy oppresses men and women, thus feminism is about liberating both men and women from this oppression. It might not be the perfect name for what it is now, but how many words in our language have taken on new meanings distinct from their origins without people kicking up a fuss? I really don't think that the movement's name not being able to incorporate all the intricacies of said movement is enough of a reason to not support something which has created such benefits to society and yet is still needed in even larger doses.
There is one great thing about the name though; it really pisses off those kinds of people who are complete roadblocks to social progress.
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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Lur » 2013-10-06, 22:00

Set wrote:There is one great thing about the name though; it really pisses off those kinds of people who are complete roadblocks to social progress.

The name is like a trial, the dudebros are supposed to get over it :mrgreen:

Besides if you add "intersectional" any complaint about the name gets solved. As long as we're truly intersectional.
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Re: Do women exist?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-10-07, 3:31

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:We are such soft wimps these days, since the 1970s or 1960s. The only macho guys are criminals and immigrants.
Being a real man = being a criminal?

So "real men" are not "soft wimps". Okay, what is a "soft wimp" and why did Swedish men become them? Define your terms.
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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Varislintu » 2013-10-07, 3:44

Ciarán12 wrote:
Varislintu wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:2 There are women in Sweden, but it is usually frowned upon to act as if they form a category of their own, different from men.


Regarding #2: But what does that meeeeeean? :) Act how? Put some meat on the bones of your complaint here. "Women" and "men" (or "real women" and "real men") not as biological beings but as targets of behaviour that is not afforded to both groups similarly are not obvious things that need no description.


I don't really like the phrasing of the position being put forward. It's like my complaint with "Feminism": it's a case of nominclature. Can't we just say that there are such things as men and women in the biological sense, but just be smart enough to realise that both should be given the same opportunities, that society as it is now engenders certain behavioural norms which is something we should endevour to eliminate, that people should stop thinking of biological gender as an important aspect of a person's personality or base assumptions of their behaviour or opinions on that. Why do we have to say men and women don't exist? Are people really so dim that they can't process complex concepts without them being boiled down to a sound bite (and in the process blunt the nuances of the concept)?


Personally, I agree we with you that we don't have to say that women or men don't exist. I'm trying to find out if "Swedish feminists" are saying that either.

Simplified charicatures of positions are often used to criticise those positions, and can sometimes boil them down helpfully. But I feel this one makes the position more obscure and impenetrable. What are the "Swedish feminists" really saying?

Apparantly it's mostly about language and terminology according to Jurgen. I don't feel I know enough about hen, the gender neutral pronoun, to comment. But I can totally see people's point on the gendered profession names. Präst to me sounds not masculine, but neutral, a default. Prästinna, the female form, sounds loaded. It's like it means priest, but with a disclaimer. It carries with it many old attitudes about women. It's like it's not quite as much a priest as präst, because the gender becomes more defining than the profession in the term. And why on earth do we need to define gender in profession names, if nowadays the expectation is that people should do their jobs equally, no matter their gender?

Jurgen, if there were separate profession terms for black people, would you better understand why black people might find them old fashioned and problematic? Without knowing the details of this case, I can even come up with an alternative formulation for the position. The people who want to abolish gendered profession terms are not saying that women don't exist, but that they do exist. They exist (or should exist) in the same normal, neutral mental category as the one men occupy, rather than being penned into a loaded area "for people of female".

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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Johanna » 2013-10-07, 4:02

Yes, the title prästinna does come with all those connotations, and also with the one of being of heathen faith, since traditionally all Christian priests were male. So within the Church of Sweden, the title for priest is präst, and has been for both genders since 1960, when it got its first female priests. And I'm pretty sure it's like that in all Christian churches that has this title, and allow women to hold it, and have a Swedish branch or an official translation of its titles.

The hen thing is exaggerated by its opponents, the vast majority using the pronoun uses it like singular 'they' in English, that is when you don't know the gender, and den is too dehumanising.

Also, the upbringing in gender-neutral behaviour that Jurgen talks about is actually only about giving kids the choice of playing and behaving like they want, as in "OK, you're a kid and like to play with cars? Cool, go ahead!" as opposed to "OK, you're a boy, so you should play with cars and not with dolls!" That is, allowing the kids to do what they like to do rather than telling hem they can't just because they were born with a penis or a vagina.

I'm surprised that Jurgen of all people thinks like this, since the macho men he so admires would be the first to pick on him for not following social norms to the T :?
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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Varislintu » 2013-10-07, 4:15

Thanks for shedding more light on the issue, Johanna. :)

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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Sophy » 2013-10-07, 8:20

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:What are "real men" and at what point did Swedish men stop being them?

We are such soft wimps these days, since the 1970s or 1960s. The only macho guys are criminals and immigrants.

:shock:
For immigrants I don't know,but to say that criminals are macho guys is ridiculous on my opinion.
Criminals are mean,fraudulent,deceptive-they willingly will trade a child's life for money or benefits,there is no sign of any scruples in their behavior when it comes for money,power and etc.
They hide behind their weapons and respect no life-even their own family members.
So,if this is the portrait of the "real man" I prefer a world without macho guys for sure. :yep:
Anyway,for those who wonder what their gender actually is,on the BBC page there is a test called "What sex is your brain"-really interesting.
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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-10-07, 10:41

Jurgen's posts smell of self-hatred. Jurgen, you give youself some unattainable ideals and then scold yourself for not reaching them.

Sophy, not all criminals are the same. Some have honour codes and respect them.

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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-10-07, 10:51

Sophy wrote:[

Anyway,for those who wonder what their gender actually is,on the BBC page there is a test called "What sex is your brain"-really interesting.


They say I think as a man and as a female because I am equally good at both types of tests. Wonder what does this mean :hmm:

1 No, Swedish men are not real men these days.

What stops Swedish men from being real men? Quit drinking beer, quit smoking, go to the gym regulary, take fight courses and such, learn to be a gentleman.

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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Lada » 2013-10-07, 15:45

AndreiB wrote:What stops Swedish men from being real men? Quit drinking beer, quit smoking, go to the gym regulary, take fight courses and such, learn to be a gentleman.

I wonder if local women value men who try to be gentlemen... According to our conservative norms, a man always pay for a woman, opens door for her, carries her bags, etc. But in societies with aggressive feminism this is not what a man is expected to do. Probably women will be insulted.

IpseDixit

Re: Do women exist?

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-10-07, 16:01

AndreiB wrote:What stops Swedish men from being real men? Quit drinking beer, quit smoking, go to the gym regulary, take fight courses and such, learn to be a gentleman.


Isn't smoking and drinking a manly thing?

Plus, gyms are usually plenty of narcissistic gays obsessed by their look :lol:

Cornerstone

Re: Do women exist?

Postby Cornerstone » 2013-10-07, 16:25

I actually drink lots of beer and I don't feel especially masculine by doing so. In fact, it makes my belly grow. I'll soon look like I was pregnant. :?

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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-10-07, 16:31

Lada wrote:
AndreiB wrote:What stops Swedish men from being real men? Quit drinking beer, quit smoking, go to the gym regulary, take fight courses and such, learn to be a gentleman.

I wonder if local women value men who try to be gentlemen... According to our conservative norms, a man always pay for a woman, opens door for her, carries her bags, etc. But in societies with aggressive feminism this is not what a man is expected to do. Probably women will be insulted.

My experience in Scandinavia tells me that it is polite to open doors for girls and carry their bags (if the bags are heavy). Going out to a restaurant and paying the girl's bill is a bit problematic, though. A lot of girls would get offended.

In Serbia it really depends on the person. Some are as conservative as you described Russians. Which means that not only are they always going to pay for their girl's bill, but they would insist to pay for a male friend's bill too. I mean, really insist. I got into a big argument with a friend once over that. He just wouldn't let me pay for anything.

The majority in Belgrade would, I assume, agree that the man should open doors, hold chairs and carry bags for the woman. Paying bills is polite on the first couple of dates. After that initial phase it doesn't really matter who's paying.

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Re: Do women exist?

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-10-07, 17:39

IpseDixit wrote:Isn't smoking and drinking a manly thing?

Well, you should know that (excessive) drinking and smoking don't have the best influence on your manhood. I have nothing against a good expensive bottle of wine, champaigne, brandy, once in a while. Or to get drunk on Saturdays with your friends, if the other 6 days you don't use alcohol.

Plus, gyms are usually plenty of narcissistic gays obsessed by their look :lol:

In gyms are all kind of people, I cannot know whether they are gay of not, thank God none of them ever approached me.

I wonder if local women value men who try to be gentlemen... According to our conservative norms, a man always pay for a woman, opens door for her, carries her bags, etc. But in societies with aggressive feminism this is not what a man is expected to do. Probably women will be insulted.

Actually, women in Western Europe are different from those in CIS countries, they are more independent, more emancipated. It's also true that "our" women also tend to follow the Western way of life. But a true woman, no matter where she lives, will always apreciate these things, so there's nothing wrong in being a gentleman. I am not talking about feminists. Actually, our friend Jurgen Wullenwever is somehow right that (some) women prefere dark-skinned immigrants, but this shouldn't be a problem and the best thing to do is to be manly - avoid having a big belly, working out, know how to fight, be a gentleman, drink less.
Last edited by Lietmotiv on 2013-10-07, 18:03, edited 2 times in total.


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