Scots

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DelBoy
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Re: Small Scots Wordlist, with norse/germanic+English

Postby DelBoy » 2009-10-15, 17:45

Fair enough, I was young n hadn't a clue what I was talking about :mrgreen:

(By the way, Linguoboy - páiste = child, not page (leathanach)) :wink:
The British Isles are awesome - I know, I live there - but Ireland is not a part of them. K thnx bai!

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Re: Small Scots Wordlist, with norse/germanic+English

Postby linguoboy » 2009-10-15, 18:22

DelBoy wrote:(By the way, Linguoboy - páiste = child, not page (leathanach))

Look up the noun "page", boyo, and you'll find two definitions. If your dictionary is the OED, the first one will say:
OED wrote:I. A boy or servant.
1. A boy, a youth. Obs.
2. a. A boy or youth employed as the personal attendant and messenger of a person of high rank. Now hist. (Many pages were youths of high rank who were placed as attendants as part of their education.)

At the time that Norman French page was borrowed into Irish, the meaning "boy" was still current. English page meaning "leaf (of a book, etc.)" is also borrowed from French, but at a much later date (1485 CE); ultimately, the two words are not related.
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DelBoy
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Re: Small Scots Wordlist, with norse/germanic+English

Postby DelBoy » 2009-10-15, 21:00

Ah, sorry didn't think of that type of page (péitse in modern Irish, although, if I understand you right, I can see how páiste came from the same word).
The British Isles are awesome - I know, I live there - but Ireland is not a part of them. K thnx bai!

Labharfainn níos mó faoi, dá dtuigfinn an bhrí...

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Re: Small Scots Wordlist, with norse/germanic+English

Postby linguoboy » 2009-10-15, 21:27

DelBoy wrote:Ah, sorry didn't think of that type of page (péitse in modern Irish, although, if I understand you right, I can see how páiste came from the same word).

Péitse is a recent reborrowing; the word isn't found in Dinneen's and Lane's (1918) gives as equivalents of "page" ara, sáilghiolla (now current in the meaning "hanger-on"), and páiste.

Agus aon chomhrá breise is cóir dúinn a bhogadh thart san fhóram s'againne--chur na hAlbanaigh bhochta suas lena ndóthain anso!
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Re: Scots discussion

Postby Riptide » 2009-11-02, 7:28

So when is there going to be a "The Person Efter Me" game for this language? :)

Also, how long would it take for a native English speaker to learn this language?
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Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby Katarinka » 2009-11-05, 23:18

I am an italian native speaker with basic english level. I am interested in learning Welsh, Irish or Scottisch Gaelic.
Which one of those languages has the easiest grammar and pronunciation?

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Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby YngNghymru » 2009-11-05, 23:27

Welsh has the easiest spelling and probably the easiest pronunciation as well. I don't know about grammar, but it doesn't have cases to worry about. However, I'm interested as to why you've posted this here, in Scots - a Germanic dialect of/relative to English influenced by Gaelic and Old Norse and spoken in Scotland- rather than in the Welsh, Irish, or Gaelic forums, which are all dedicated to actual Celtic languages.
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Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby Quevenois » 2009-11-05, 23:55

Ok.
Last edited by Quevenois on 2010-11-20, 3:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby YngNghymru » 2009-11-06, 11:57

Quevenois wrote:To me, the easiest Celtic language must be Welsh, for pronunciation and grammar. But it doesn't mean it's easy either! It's just relative!

Irish and Gaelic have declensions, a complicated spelling and pronunciation. But they are nicer than Welsh (in my own opinion!). They look and sound more "bewitching", like.


I would agree with that. Irish and Gaelic both have beautiful (if stupid) orthographies. They sound pretty similar to Welsh, though, to be honest...
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Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby Quevenois » 2009-11-06, 20:09

Ok.
Last edited by Quevenois on 2010-11-20, 3:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby linguoboy » 2009-11-06, 20:54

Katarinka wrote:I am an italian native speaker with basic english level. I am interested in learning Welsh, Irish or Scottisch Gaelic. Which one of those languages has the easiest grammar and pronunciation?

That depends entirely on what you find difficult. Personally, I started with Welsh and moved to Irish later in life. But I don't find one "hard" and the other "easy"; they both have their complications but in different areas.

Also, I have to agree with Quevenois about Gaelic orthography: If you think it's "stupid" then it goes to show that you don't really understand the pronunciation or underlying phonology of these languages. I've seen several attempts to "improve" them, all of which end up less accurate and less usable than the system in use already.
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Re: Basic Scots that you need to know!

Postby gaberlunzie1707 » 2009-12-17, 16:08

Sean of the Dead wrote:Also, which dialect/dialects are the farthest from English?

Hi.

Shetlandic (classed "Insular Scots") is what you'll be after. It's a mix between odd spoken Northern Scots and Norn influences (old Norse). Unlike English as it's the furthest away, even unlike Scots. It uses the 'ö' with the two dots above it and other characters.

But that had sadly been hammered but are trying to maintain. Very little online however. It is a small remote place. It's being done direct straight into the schools where it's needed. They have a local group doing that.

Click the song audio "Boannie Tammie Scolla" below for an example of this begin used. This is from a new CD to teach the young.

http://www.scotslanguage.com/articles/view/1620

I am Scottish and understand only a few words. People might even think that it's Gaelic or something totally different but it comes under Scots, hence why Scots is rightfully recognised as it covers a number of things like this and not just the situation in 2009.

Pure bulk standard Scots can be unlike English too, just like the Shetlandic. There's as much from mainland Europe in the thing, such as Norse, German, Icelandic and others.

For example, the proper Fife dialect (east central) called 'succur' for sugar, 'bouler' for kettle, and 'chambra' for parlour - all from the French thanks to trade links. That's only a few examples. Now magnify, coupled with a very strong accent. Sadly these words doesn't occur now though.

Any of these modern dialects - you can increase by many times and you may get to where they could or should be. I think it will get there but after some decades and hard work. It's only now people like myself are realising this even exists.

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Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby neoni » 2009-12-25, 21:03

welsh spelling is easier than gaelic's? are you all mad??
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Re: Small Scots Wordlist, with norse/germanic+English

Postby neoni » 2009-12-25, 21:07

i always thought that both the irish and scots took bra from the vikings seperately. the closest we have in scottish gaelic is nothing like it in terms of pronunciation or meaning.
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Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby YngNghymru » 2009-12-25, 22:05

neoni wrote:welsh spelling is easier than gaelic's? are you all mad??


Welsh is totally phonemic. Gaelic has lots of unnecessary consonants which Irish cuts down on quite a bit.
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Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby Quevenois » 2009-12-25, 22:19

welsh spelling is easier than gaelic's? are you all mad??


Of course it's easier. You learn the few rules of the Welsh spelling within a few minutes. Welsh looks unpronounceable at first sight because there are many w's and y's, but once you know w is oo/w and y is roughly i or uh, it's easy.

For Gaelic you need much more time, to learn the rules... plus the many exceptions, actually you need to learn the pronunciation of new words by heart, in case there'd be exceptions... consonants, clusters of consonants, clusters of vowels, diphthongs, stressed and unstressed syllables, pre- and post-astpirations, and so on.
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Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby neoni » 2009-12-26, 1:10

i've only been doing welsh for a couple days, but i just can't get my head around the spelling. i don't remember having any problems with gaelic at all, though.
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Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby neoni » 2009-12-26, 1:14

YngNghymru wrote:
neoni wrote:welsh spelling is easier than gaelic's? are you all mad??


Welsh is totally phonemic. Gaelic has lots of unnecessary consonants which Irish cuts down on quite a bit.


there really aren't all that many unnecessary consonants, and the ones that do exist give insights into words that have been completely lost in irish spelling. compare the irish "daichead" with the gaelic "dà fhichead"
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Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby YngNghymru » 2009-12-26, 1:29

neoni wrote:i've only been doing welsh for a couple days, but i just can't get my head around the spelling. i don't remember having any problems with gaelic at all, though.


Honestly?

a - a or ɑː
e - ɛ or more usually e:
i - ɪ or i:
o - ɔ or o:
u - i (the difference between 'i' and 'u' denotes etymology, homonyms, etc etc)
w - ʊ or more commonly u:
y - ɪ in final syllables, ə elsewhere

the acute accent denotes that half of a diphthong is to be pronounced differently or separates homonyms. The 'to bach' or 'hat' shows that the vowel is long (a can be pronounced a or ɑː, â is always ɑː).

The consonants are pretty much English, apart from ff/f, ll and the voiceless nasals/rhotic (which are more a problem with phonology than anything).

Whereas Gaelic has all sorts of apparently weird things for English speakers to get over (such as 'th' representing 'h' and loads of vowels turning into schwas).

Why is this still in this forum? :P
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Re: Which is the easiest celtic language to learn?

Postby Psi-Lord » 2009-12-26, 2:19

If I may throw my 10¢ in, one thing to remember about Gaelic orthography is that it’s indeed pretty logical and natural and all that if one departs from the oral language; however, since most learners actually depart from the written language instead, it’s usually seen as puzzling and confusing. At least that was my experience during the time I studied Scottish Gaelic, to the extent that it sometimes did feel like I actually had to learn pronunciation on a word by word basis. :roll:

I’ve never dabbled with Welsh, though, even if I’ve been thinking about it these days, so I can’t draw any parallels myself. Being exposed to Scottish Gaelic, though, the first time I read more about Welsh orthography and grammar, it did surprise me as being pretty much unlike it.

P.S.: I just had to quote this particular paragraph from a page on the myths involving Welsh pronunciation:

[The idea that Welsh spelling is completely logical, so that the pronunciation is easy] might be more kindly described as a convenient benevolent fiction, and it feels cruel to pick holes in such a comforting idea. Most people know that it’s not completely logical, but apart from the letter Y having two distinct pronunciations (sometimes roughly like English hit and sometimes more like hut) they take comfort in the fact that the spelling is pretty straightforward. So it is, more or less, until you start looking more closely at it, and then you realise that the fine detail is actually a lot more complex than you first thought – and there’s really not much advice available for those who want to understand thoroughly. But that’s for another day, and another webpage. . .
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