Ladin

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Massimiliano B
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Ladin

Postby Massimiliano B » 2012-08-06, 14:06

I would like to put in this thread everything related to the Ladin language (books, courses, useful links, etc.).

The Ladin language is a Romance language spoken by about 30000 people in the Dolomites, amazingly beautiful mountains in Northern Italy. I love this part of the world, and I love the language the people speak. I've been different times in the Dolomites, but I cannot speak the Ladin language.

Children speak Ladin untill they go to school, where they learn to speak Italian and German. The three languages are official languages of this part of Italy, and usually people - except the elders - speak all of them fluently.

Here are three maps. In the first one a view of Italy. The Ladin language is spoken in the red part of North-East Italy. In this map it is called "Ladino dolomitico" (Dolomitic Ladin), in order to distinguish it from the Friulan language, which is sometimes called "Ladino Friulano" (Friulan Ladin):


Image




In the second a view of Northern Italy and the part of it where Ladin is spoken:

Image




In the third there's a closer view of the area in which the Ladin is spoken. The different colors indicate the five varieties of the language:

Image




The Ladin language, along with Romansh (Rumantsch) and Friulan, forms the so called Rhaeto-Romance group of languages, as can be seen here:

Image



There is a grammar of the Ladin language, but unfortunately it is written in the Ladin language!
It can be donwloaded here:

http://www.spell-termles.ladinia.net/do ... S_2001.pdf

The Ladin language described in this work is a koiné derived from the different varieties spoken in the valleys of the Dolomites.


Omniglot page about the Ladin language:

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/ladin.htm


I've found this great site, but it is only in Italian:

http://www.ladintal.it/
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2012-08-06, 14:37, edited 1 time in total.
Dette er nemlig Formelen, som beskriver Selvets Tilstand, naar Fortvivlelsen ganske er udryddet: i at forholde sig til sig selv, og i at ville være sig selv grunder Selvet gjennemsigtigt i den Magt, som satte det. (This is namely the formula, that describes the condition of the self, when despair is completely eradicated: by relating itself to itself, and by willing to be itself, the self is grounded transparently in the power which constituted it) (Søren Kierkegaard, The sickness unto death)

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Re: Ladin

Postby linguoboy » 2012-08-06, 14:27

Massimiliano B wrote:The Ladin language, along with Romansh (Rumantsch) and Friulan, forms the so called Rhaeto-Romance group of languages

Or it doesn't. Haiman and Benincà argue pretty convincingly in The Rhaeto-romance languages that there are no features which are common to Romansh, Ladin, and Friulian and which are not shared with any of the other adjoining varieties (the "dialetti settentrionali" on your first map). This grouping is based on an earlier hypothesis of a distinct common origin (and Rhaetian substratum) which simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Ladin

Postby Massimiliano B » 2012-08-06, 15:20

I'm not a specialist. I know that these three languages share many features with adjoining languages, but maybe they do that in an original way! So, they likely could form a distinct group.
Dette er nemlig Formelen, som beskriver Selvets Tilstand, naar Fortvivlelsen ganske er udryddet: i at forholde sig til sig selv, og i at ville være sig selv grunder Selvet gjennemsigtigt i den Magt, som satte det. (This is namely the formula, that describes the condition of the self, when despair is completely eradicated: by relating itself to itself, and by willing to be itself, the self is grounded transparently in the power which constituted it) (Søren Kierkegaard, The sickness unto death)

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Re: Ladin

Postby linguoboy » 2012-08-06, 16:15

Massimiliano B wrote:I'm not a specialist. I know that these three languages share many features with adjoining languages, but maybe they do that in an original way! So, they likely could form a distinct group.

I'll try to explain again: To be considered a distinct grouping, all varieties would have to share common innovations that no varieties outside the group share. Each of the three groups --Romansh, Ladin, and Friulian--as well as each member within them combines features "in an original way". That's why they're considered distinct varieties. But they don't share enough distinctive features to make sense as a unifed grouping. That is, there is no evidence that, at one time, there was a common "Rhaetian" form of Vulgar Latin distinct from Proto-Venetian, Proto-Gallo-Italian, and Proto-Franco-Provençal.

You don't need to be a specialist to follow Haiman and Benincà's argument. It's very clearly laid out. I'm not sure if their book has been translated into Italian, but Benincà have published extensively in the field of Italian dialectology, so I expect her arguments have appeared elsewhere.

On a personal note, I'll note that I've spent some trying to learn Romansh. I've found this of no special use when trying to decipher Ladin or Friulian. In fact, with Friulian, my passive knowledge of Standard Italian is considerably more helpful.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Ladin

Postby Massimiliano B » 2012-08-06, 18:58

In italiano:
In realtà, è poco importante per me stabilire se il retoromanzo è un sottogruppo linguistico unitario oppure no. Può darsi che abbiano ragione i due studiosi che tu hai citato - che non conosco - oppure che la ragione sia di coloro che dicono che il retoromanzo è un sottogruppo ben definito del gruppo linguistico romanzo. Da una breve ricerca su internet compiuta poco fa, leggo che si tratta di una questione irrisolta. Comunque, io non ho una posizione scientifica da difendere. Non ho problemi ad accettare qualsiasi conclusione al riguardo.
Non è questo l'argomento centrale della discussione che ho aperto.

In english:
Indeed, it is unimportant for me to determine whether the rhaeto-romance is a linguistic subgroup or not. Maybe the professors you have mentioned are right - I do not know them - or maybe those who say the rhaeto-romance is a well-defined sub-group of languages are right. In a brief search on the internet I've made ​​a while ago, I've read that this is an unresolved issue. Anyway, I do not have a scientific position to defend about this issue. I am able to accept any conclusion in this regard.
This is not the central topic of my thread.
Dette er nemlig Formelen, som beskriver Selvets Tilstand, naar Fortvivlelsen ganske er udryddet: i at forholde sig til sig selv, og i at ville være sig selv grunder Selvet gjennemsigtigt i den Magt, som satte det. (This is namely the formula, that describes the condition of the self, when despair is completely eradicated: by relating itself to itself, and by willing to be itself, the self is grounded transparently in the power which constituted it) (Søren Kierkegaard, The sickness unto death)

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Re: Ladin

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-06-17, 15:12

E' da quando è morta mia nonna che mi è nato un interesse per questa lingua. Mia nonna era una di quelle trentamila persone, purtroppo 60 anni di vita qui a Firenze le hanno fatto completamente dimenticare il Ladino, tramandando dunque relativamente poco a mia mamma e nulla a me e mia sorella. Mi ricordo di aver visto libri e giornali scritti in Ladino. Fino ad ora non conoscevo libri di grammatica o altro. Darò un'occhiata a quei siti.

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Re: Ladin

Postby Massimiliano B » 2013-07-12, 0:16

Tua nonna non ti ha insegnato neanche una parola in ladino? Che peccato!

Didn't your grandmother teach you a single word in Ladin? It's a pity!
Dette er nemlig Formelen, som beskriver Selvets Tilstand, naar Fortvivlelsen ganske er udryddet: i at forholde sig til sig selv, og i at ville være sig selv grunder Selvet gjennemsigtigt i den Magt, som satte det. (This is namely the formula, that describes the condition of the self, when despair is completely eradicated: by relating itself to itself, and by willing to be itself, the self is grounded transparently in the power which constituted it) (Søren Kierkegaard, The sickness unto death)

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Re: Ladin

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-12, 15:51

Massimiliano B wrote:Tua nonna non ti ha insegnato neanche una parola in ladino? Che peccato!


Sì è un peccato. E' anche un peccato che mia nonna non abbia mai imparato il tedesco pur essendo sua madre bilingue (ladino-tedesco)... ma d'altra parte erano i tempi del duce...

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Re: Ladin

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-14, 22:55

Ho stampato il manuale di grammatica :D certo avrebbero anche potuto scriverlo in Italiano, ma vabbè, con un po' di sforzo riesco a comprendere l'80% di quello che c'è scritto.

Anche se quel manuale è un manuale di Ladino standard ma poi ogni valle ha in realtà il suo dialetto. Alcune pronunce sono davvero fighe. Quella della Val Gardenia penso sia la mia preferita di quelle che ho sentito al momento.

Ho pure trovato il sito Ladino della RAI:

http://www.raibz.rai.it/la/index.php

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Re: Ladin

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-09-07, 18:13

Ho trovato questa TV in lingua ladina:
I've found a TV in Ladin:

http://www.tvladina.com/ercaboan/servizi/ercaboan.html
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2013-09-08, 16:45, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ladin

Postby Massimiliano B » 2013-09-08, 1:51

Thanks for the links!

Maybe it's better you write your posts also in English! :wink:
Dette er nemlig Formelen, som beskriver Selvets Tilstand, naar Fortvivlelsen ganske er udryddet: i at forholde sig til sig selv, og i at ville være sig selv grunder Selvet gjennemsigtigt i den Magt, som satte det. (This is namely the formula, that describes the condition of the self, when despair is completely eradicated: by relating itself to itself, and by willing to be itself, the self is grounded transparently in the power which constituted it) (Søren Kierkegaard, The sickness unto death)

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Re: Ladin

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-09-08, 16:46

Done :P

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Re: Ladin

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-10-19, 10:24


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Re: Ladin

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-12-11, 23:27

A Ladin newspaper:

http://www.lauscdiladins.com/Home/Home.aspx

Another Ladin dictionary (in two of its varieties):

http://www.istitutoladino.it/index.php? ... icle&id=45

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Re: Ladin

Postby Massimiliano B » 2013-12-12, 22:10

Grande Ipsedixit!

Ho una copia di La usc di Ladins. E' un quotidiano molto interessante perché ha articoli scritti in tutte e cinque le varietà di ladino.

Tempo fa dicesti di avere intenzione di studiare un po' di ladino.
Sei riuscito a impararlo un po'?

________________________________________________________

Great finds, Ipsedixit!


La usc di Ladins
has articles in all the five varieties of Ladin.

I remember you said you tried to learn Ladin. Are you still learning it?
Dette er nemlig Formelen, som beskriver Selvets Tilstand, naar Fortvivlelsen ganske er udryddet: i at forholde sig til sig selv, og i at ville være sig selv grunder Selvet gjennemsigtigt i den Magt, som satte det. (This is namely the formula, that describes the condition of the self, when despair is completely eradicated: by relating itself to itself, and by willing to be itself, the self is grounded transparently in the power which constituted it) (Søren Kierkegaard, The sickness unto death)

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Re: Ladin

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-12-12, 22:18

Yes, I'm studying it. Not on a regular basis, but I'm studying it. I've also purchased two novels in Ladin that I still have to read.

The grammar book is good but sometimes it's not easy to understand it since also the explanations are in Ladin. I've also noticed a problem: sometimes the Standard Ladin dictionary doesn't work, therefore many times I have to use the Fascian one (which happens to be the variety I'm mostly interested in since my grandma was from there but nonetheless it would be nice if the dictionary of the Standard form wasn't so dodgy).

Evito di riscrivere tutto in italiano ché mi fa fatica :P

---

La usc di Ladins has articles in all the five varieties of Ladin


If you're referring to the list of toponyms on the left side of the website, it's just a way to select the articles by areas, but everything seems to be written in Standard Ladin.

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Re: Ladin

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-12-16, 10:52


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Re: Ladin

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-12-31, 17:58

Here there are many written texts in Ladin Anpezan that can be downloaded in PDF:

http://www.istitutoladino.it/index.php? ... 36&lang=it

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Re: Ladin

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-09, 16:01

You were right La Usc di Ladins is written in the five varieties!

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Re: Ladin

Postby Massimiliano B » 2014-01-14, 23:42

Which one do you like the most?
Dette er nemlig Formelen, som beskriver Selvets Tilstand, naar Fortvivlelsen ganske er udryddet: i at forholde sig til sig selv, og i at ville være sig selv grunder Selvet gjennemsigtigt i den Magt, som satte det. (This is namely the formula, that describes the condition of the self, when despair is completely eradicated: by relating itself to itself, and by willing to be itself, the self is grounded transparently in the power which constituted it) (Søren Kierkegaard, The sickness unto death)


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