Jamtlandic (Jamsk'/Jamske)

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Aszev
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Postby Aszev » 2007-12-28, 0:08

Hunef wrote:
Aszev wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Aszev wrote:Sedan undrar jag også hvad ŗ är tänkt att stå för?

Det står för ett tonlöst r, i de allra flesta dialekter realiserat som [ʂ], även om Hammerdalsmålet ligger på det äldre stadiet [ɾ̥] (dvs ett äkta tonlöst r som i isländska). Exempelvis så har man ju mòŗne [<sup>2</sup>mɔʂɳ] 'mörkna', där [<sup>2</sup>] står för tvåstavighetsaccent trots att ordet är enstavigt (sic!). (Detta ord antyder att man kanske måste använda diakrit. Skulle du ha skrivit "mòrne"? Hur vet man då att r:et är tonlöst!?)

(NB: Verbet mòŗne uttalas dock [<sup>2</sup>mɑɳ̥] i Hammerdalsmål.)
Är detta tonlösa r komplementärt på samma sätt som det tonlösa l:et?

Nej, tydligen inte. Det verkar som att detta är förknippat med det faktum att k som ger tinlöshet i sig har försvunnit i några ord, t.ex. myrkna > mòŗne. Nå, hur skulle du skriva här? Du svarade aldrig förut.
Är det bara före ett försvunnet k som r blir tonlöst eller har det blivit tonlöst även i annra positioner?
Last edited by Aszev on 2007-12-28, 1:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Hunef
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-28, 1:08

Aszev wrote:Är det bara före ett försvunnet k som r blir tonlöst eller har det blivit tonlöst även i annra positioner?

Alltid före k och p oavsett om denna konsonant försvunnit eller ej. Ibland även framför t. (I nordvästligt hälsingemål får man alltid tonlöshet framför t; jag har ingifta släktingar därifrån som ibland använder detta uttal.)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Hunef
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The jamtlanders - a patriotic people

Postby Hunef » 2007-12-28, 2:45

Just wanted to share this article in Swedish with you; it's title is Jämtarna – ett patriotiskt folk 'The jamtlanders - a patriotic people'. The article says, among other things, the follwoing:
    "Lokalpatriotismen i Jämtland är unik, säger Fredrik Johansson, som är omvärldsanalytiker på United Minds."

    'The local patriotism in Jämtland is unique, says Fredrik Johansson, who is a surrounding world analyst on United Minds.'

    Article author:
    Image
    Sara Strömberg
Nice to read that. 8)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Bokkjen
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Postby Bokkjen » 2008-01-04, 1:26

Why do you translate Jämtarna to Jamtlanders?

And I loathe Annika Norlin, indie sucks. And model airplanes? Shit pommes frites! :lol:

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Postby Hunef » 2008-01-05, 0:13

Bokkjen wrote:Why do you translate Jämtarna to Jamtlanders?

No, the Jamtlanders. :roll:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Bokkjen » 2008-01-05, 0:15

:doh:

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Postby Aszev » 2008-01-05, 22:51

Why not Jamts or something? At least that's how I interpreted Bokkjen's question.

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Postby Bokkjen » 2008-01-06, 22:13

Thank you.

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Postby Hunef » 2008-01-08, 20:28

Or yamts - reflecting the pronunciation - ? Or something more etymologically correct, e.g. ea(m)ts?
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Bokkjen
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Postby Bokkjen » 2008-01-08, 21:40

But Jamts is pretty close to jam and jam is good. :yep:

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Postby Hunef » 2008-01-08, 22:24

Bokkjen wrote:But Jamts is pretty close to jam and jam is good. :yep:

So, what's wrong with yam? :twisted:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Bokkjen » 2008-01-09, 20:45

No sugar :x

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Postby Hunef » 2008-01-09, 20:48

Bokkjen wrote:No sugar :x

Then add sugar.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Bokkjen » 2008-02-24, 21:34

Hunef, have you read the work of Hans Westin? Based on "landsmålsalfabetet"?

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Postby Hunef » 2008-02-25, 20:52

Aszev wrote:Hvarför vill du inte dubbelteckna konsonanter? För att det är oetymologiskt?

Ja, men det etymologiska är bara sekundärt. Det primära är det diafonemiska. Om man vill infoga andra tröndska dialekter så måste man vara etymologisk på just denna punkt eftersom många tröndermål har palataliserat gamla långa konsonanter. Därför skulle dubbelskrivning av lång konsonant kunna misstolkas som palatal konsonant i flertalet tröndermål. Således måste man följa fornnordiskans kvantitetssystem, annars förstör man dagens kvalitetssystem.

Bokkjen wrote:Hunef, have you read the work of Hans Westin? Based on "landsmålsalfabetet"?

No, who is he and what has he accomplished of interest for Jamtlandic? I can't find anything relevant on Google.

BTW, Bokkjen, do you have some knowledge in making on-line accessible databases (e.g. MySQL-to-php)? Me and a Jamtlandic friend are thinking about putting up a Jamtlandic dictionary accessible on the Internet. Compare with e.g. this site (a net dictionary for the peculiar Norwegian Valle dialect). We're having the interface of the Oxford English Dictionary - accessible here (though a subscription is needed) - as a role model.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Bokkjen
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Postby Bokkjen » 2008-02-26, 20:50

Hunef wrote:
Bokkjen wrote:Hunef, have you read the work of Hans Westin? Based on "landsmålsalfabetet"?

No, who is he and what has he accomplished of interest for Jamtlandic? I can't find anything relevant on Google.

Yeah I've done a search on him myself but just like you I found nothing. However I've been reading Jämten 1986 and this part got my intention:

    En insats av stor betydelse är landsmålsalfabetet för Jämtland och Härjedalen. Det utarbetades av Hans Westin, som var mycket språkkunnig, och upptog hela andra bandets första häfte (Jämtlands läns Fonrminnesförenings Tidskrift, min anm.). Westin började arbeta med alfabetet i mars 1894, och redan 1897 var presentationen klar. Det var ett beundransvärt verk, grundligt genomarbetat men ändå klart och överskådligt. Sockenmålen delades in i grupper efter vissa allmänna kännetecken: medeljämtska, sydjämtska, östjämtska och slutligen härjedalska mål. Språket behandlades ljud för ljud. Gruppernas uttal jämfördes med varandra och betecknades med fonetiska tecken, och massor med exempel gavs. Westin utgick från ett fonetiskt alfabet som redan fanns. Han använde det som J. A. Lundell i Uppsala konstruerat 1877, ur vilket han "bröt ut" de tecken som behövdes för jämtskans del. För indelningen av målen tycks han ha använt en artikel av E. Jessen i (norsk) Historisk tidsskrift år 1872.

Hunef wrote:BTW, Bokkjen, do you have some knowledge in making on-line accessible databases (e.g. MySQL-to-php)? Me and a Jamtlandic friend are thinking about putting up a Jamtlandic dictionary accessible on the Internet. Compare with e.g. this site (a net dictionary for the peculiar Norwegian Valle dialect). We're having the interface of the Oxford English Dictionary - accessible here (though a subscription is needed) - as a role model.

No I'm afraid I don't.

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Postby Bokkjen » 2008-02-26, 20:56

I realized I didn't answer your question. Hans Westin (1855-1908) was a member of Jämtlands läns fornminnesförening (and its intendant 1905-1908).

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Postby Hunef » 2008-02-26, 21:22

Bokkjen wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Bokkjen wrote:Hunef, have you read the work of Hans Westin? Based on "landsmålsalfabetet"?

No, who is he and what has he accomplished of interest for Jamtlandic? I can't find anything relevant on Google.

Yeah I've done a search on him myself but just like you I found nothing. However I've been reading Jämten 1986 and this part got my intention:

    En insats av stor betydelse är landsmålsalfabetet för Jämtland och Härjedalen. Det utarbetades av Hans Westin, som var mycket språkkunnig, och upptog hela andra bandets första häfte (Jämtlands läns Fonrminnesförenings Tidskrift, min anm.). Westin började arbeta med alfabetet i mars 1894, och redan 1897 var presentationen klar. Det var ett beundransvärt verk, grundligt genomarbetat men ändå klart och överskådligt. Sockenmålen delades in i grupper efter vissa allmänna kännetecken: medeljämtska, sydjämtska, östjämtska och slutligen härjedalska mål. Språket behandlades ljud för ljud. Gruppernas uttal jämfördes med varandra och betecknades med fonetiska tecken, och massor med exempel gavs. Westin utgick från ett fonetiskt alfabet som redan fanns. Han använde det som J. A. Lundell i Uppsala konstruerat 1877, ur vilket han "bröt ut" de tecken som behövdes för jämtskans del. För indelningen av målen tycks han ha använt en artikel av E. Jessen i (norsk) Historisk tidsskrift år 1872.

Interesting. At the library, I may have read some in a small book/dissertation written by him. Or maybe it was some other guy. The book/dissertation was about the "landsmålsalfabetet" for the dialects spoken in Jämtland, and it was a pretty old one. I'll try to remember to look it up next time I am at the library.

So, you'd argue that one should use "his" alphabet for Jamtlandic, or? :lol:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Bokkjen
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Postby Bokkjen » 2008-02-26, 23:17

No I just wanted to know whether or not you knew more than me about it (perhaps even provide a sample), and if you had any use of his work. :wink:

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Postby Hunef » 2008-02-29, 20:03

Bokkjen wrote:No I just wanted to know whether or not you knew more than me about it (perhaps even provide a sample), and if you had any use of his work. :wink:

I realize I forgot to look it up at the library, sorry. :x

The "landsmålsalfabetet" (LA) is used for all dialects spoken in Sweden, not just the Jamtlandic ones. I see no point in using LA when the internationally known IPA exists. When I describe Jamtlandic phonology I consistently use IPA (or X-SAMPA, which is virtually the same thing, though more computer-friendly).
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan


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