Jamtlandic (Jamsk'/Jamske)

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Hunef
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-13, 20:58

Aszev wrote:Could you post some sample words using your new way of writing the vowels?

Sorry for the delay, but I have been in the South for a couple of days (10th to 13th) escaping the Niflheim weather we just had in Jämtland. :lol:

Alphabet (revised proposition):
    a à b d ð e è f g h i ì j k l ł ļ m n o ò p r ŗ s t u ù v y ỳ ø á ei ou øy
Examples (using -e rather than -'):
    a - staðne v. 'stop'
    à - stjàgà n. 'ladder'
    b - bjør n. 'beaver'
    d - døy v. 'die'
    ð - breið adj. 'broad'
    e - tjett adj. 'dense'
    è - tèv n. 'odour'
    f - frøse v. 'freeze'
    g - grøt n. 'stones' (collective)
    h - hòlle v. 'hold'
    i - lime n. 'broom'
    ì - lìvr n. 'liver'
    j - jáðn n. 'iron'
    k - krune n. 'crown' (not the currency)
    l - spàlà v. 'play'
    ł - tàłà v. 'speak'
    ļ - sòļt n. 'salt'
    m - mour n. 'ant'
    n - njøte v. 'enjoy'
    o - stoł n. 'chair'
    ò - spòr n. 'trace; track'
    p - padde n. 'toad'
    r - ráng adj. 'wrong'
    ŗ - mòŗne v. 'darken'
    s - svìk n. 'treachery'
    t - tru v. 'believe'
    u - bru n. 'bridge'
    ù - vùkù n. 'week'
    v - vatn n. 'water'
    y - yłe v. 'howl'
    - skỳtỳn adj. 'shot'
    ø - fjøs n. 'cow-house'
    á - báðe pron. 'both'
    ei - sļeikje v. 'lick'
    ou - houg n. 'heap'
    øy - støyt n. 'shock'
Don't ask me to explain the pronunciation of each of these. It took an hour to compile the list above. :?
Last edited by Hunef on 2007-12-14, 20:43, edited 2 times in total.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Bokkjen » 2007-12-14, 12:04

Looks nice Hunef.

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Postby Aleco » 2007-12-14, 15:13

Looks pretty nice, I gotta say :D
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-14, 20:45

Note that I have made a couple of corrections to the list regarding ł. (I'm still a bit unused to this letter so I tend to forget it now and then.)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-22, 1:50

Maybe à should be replaced with æ due to e.g. symmetry reasons? :?
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Aleco » 2007-12-22, 9:43

If the pronuncation is Æ, I guess it souldn't be too bad? But then again: A would be the only letter without a grave.
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-22, 11:17

Aleco wrote:If the pronuncation is Æ, I guess it souldn't be too bad?

Not really, è is [e]~[ɛ]~[æ]. The letter æ (or à) would be [æ]~[ɐ]~[a], i.e. a very broad Norwegian æ or a very open a. Jamtlandic è would be more like yor æ.


Aleco wrote:But then again: A would be the only letter without a grave.

Exactly. That was the point. All other graves come from an old short vowel, and are paired with a vowel coming from an old long vowel. (The exception is ø, but there was no short ø in most varieties of Early Old Norse, so this is easily excused.)
This system can't be employed for a. Would you really wanna use the non-diacritic a to denote the å-sound? (Remember, Swe/Nor/Dan å comes from ON á.) No, instead you use e.g. á (which I have done here.) But you certainly wanna use the letter a, and that is what corresponds to an old short a! This makes a grave a superfluous from a symmetrical point of view. The æ (or à as I proposed earlier) would etymologically not be connected to an old short a, but the whole range of ON i-e-a through a-levelling (e.g. bera > bæræ [bɐɾɐ] v. 'carry') and r-umlaut (e.g. helft > hæłd [hɐɖː] n. 'half'). This means that the letter æ - consisiting of two representing elements - a and e - in the sequence i-e-a would preferrably be used.

Do you understand my point now? Don't you too think that a system like
    <sup>...</sup> èe æaá òo <sup>...</sup>
looks more symmetrical than
    <sup>...</sup> èe àaá òo <sup>...</sup>
right? If one had the following system instead:
    <sup>...</sup> èe àaá oó <sup>...</sup>
I would agree with having a grave à. But this is simply not practical. The follwoing variety of the sequence farthest up would be very symmetrical too:
    <sup>...</sup> èe æ a å òo <sup>...</sup>
Note how æ is a graphical mix of e and a, and how å in the same sense is a mix of a and o. Unfortunately, the southwestern variety of Jamtlandic has diphthongized the ON á into [ɑʊ] rather than staying at the [ɔ] stage, so they would never accept using å to denote their precious "fourth" diphthong. :evil:
Last edited by Hunef on 2007-12-22, 12:32, edited 1 time in total.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Aleco » 2007-12-22, 12:23

To be honest, you're a little too complex for me :oops:
Kan du inte förklara lite för mig på em ess enn?

But well, I do agree about the symmetrical system of e æ a :wink: And I'd prefer æ too, as I already said, since I don't like the graves.

About the "au" diphtong to the south: Would they accept an accented a?
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-22, 12:39

Aleco wrote:To be honest, you're a little too complex for me :oops:
Kan du inte förklara lite för mig på em ess enn?

Jag föredrar att nå ut till så många som möjligt så vi får föra diskussionen här.

Aleco wrote:But well, I do agree about the symmetrical system of e æ a :wink: And I'd prefer æ too, as I already said, since I don't like the graves.

Ironically, I am merely reinstating a letter for this purpose I once rejected. The Academy of Jamtlandic agreed on using this letter æ in the context I described above, but I criticized it. But it fits well in the system I have created (though not so well into their system).

Aleco wrote:About the "au" diphtong to the south: Would they accept an accented a?

Hopefully. The Academy wants to spell it åu (sic!), a guy from the area I know wants to spell it ao. The problem is that neither would work as a spelling for all dialects of Jamtlandic. My dialect has no diphthong for this, so the secondary diphthong åu/ao would mean very little to me. Both unetymological and non-phonetic for my dialect. The only reasonable choice would be á, as I see it.
Last edited by Hunef on 2007-12-23, 22:00, edited 1 time in total.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Bokkjen » 2007-12-23, 14:22

If you want them to accept á just make them aware on how it's done in Icelandic.

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Postby Aleco » 2007-12-23, 16:32

Bokkjen wrote:If you want them to accept á just make them aware on how it's done in Icelandic.

Exactly what i was about to say. :)
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-23, 22:02

Aleco wrote:
Bokkjen wrote:If you want them to accept á just make them aware on how it's done in Icelandic.

Exactly what i was about to say. :)

That is my suggestion - think about Icelandic.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Mulder-21 » 2007-12-27, 5:20

Hunef wrote:Alphabet (revised proposition):
    a à b d ð e è f g h i ì j k l ł ļ m n o ò p r ŗ s t u ù v y ỳ ø á ei ou øy


Although I love the various exotic diacritics, like in this case ļ and ŗ, wouldn't it be easier from a technological POV to use ĺ and ŕ instead, since you're not using acutes anyway, except for á which you've recently added? And yes, I am aware of the possible problem it might introduce, since it is/can be hard to differentiate between ł and ĺ in handwriting, but then again Slovaks differentiate between ĺ and ľ without too many problems.
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Postby Aleco » 2007-12-27, 11:02

I use ĺ for my dialect btw ;)

I'd say it's harder to distinguish ł with t written :?
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Postby Mulder-21 » 2007-12-27, 15:05

Well, there's always ľ and ř too.
Gløgt er gestsins eyga. (Føroyskt orðafelli)
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L'occhio dell'ospite è acuto. (Proverbio faroico)
Hosťovo oko je múdre. (Faerské uslovie)

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Postby Aszev » 2007-12-27, 15:26

Är inte utbredningen av tunt og tjockt l förutsägbart dock? Det finns väl någon regel för hvar de förekommer, og i sådana fall behövs ju inte någon diakrit för dem (om du inte vill ha det i rent utbildningssyfte, för att visa rikssvenskarna :P).

Samma fråga för det frikativa l:et. Om jag inte misstar mig förekommer det bara i anslutning till s og t? Om det inte finns "vanliga" l i de positionerna behöver du ju inte heller märka ut detta ljud på något särskilt sätt.

Sedan undrar jag også hvad ŗ är tänkt att stå för?

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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-27, 17:14

Mulder-21 wrote:
Hunef wrote:Alphabet (revised proposition):
    a à b d ð e è f g h i ì j k l ł ļ m n o ò p r ŗ s t u ù v y ỳ ø á ei ou øy


Although I love the various exotic diacritics, like in this case ļ and ŗ, wouldn't it be easier from a technological POV to use ĺ and ŕ instead, since you're not using acutes anyway, except for á which you've recently added?

Different phenomena require different treatments. In this case, á denotes and old long vowel, while ļ and ŗ denote voiceless consonants, not old long consonants.

The main reason I have rejected ĺ and ŕ is the fact that putting an acute on top of l looks really terrible. I felt it needed a diacritic underneath instead. The diacritic on r must be the same, of course.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-27, 17:25

Aszev wrote:Är inte utbredningen av tunt og tjockt l förutsägbart dock? Det finns väl någon regel för hvar de förekommer, og i sådana fall behövs ju inte någon diakrit för dem (om du inte vill ha det i rent utbildningssyfte, för att visa rikssvenskarna :P).

Jag gjorde detta antagande förut i mina tidigare förslag för ortografin. Men sen insåg jag att den jämtska utjämningen (som i princip bara vi har) förstör denna komplementära princip som funkar så väl i de allra flesta andra dialekter med tjockt l. Om vi använder ortografin föreslagen ovan så har vi det (väsentligen) minimala paret spælæ 'spela' med tunt l vs tæłæ 'tala' med tjockt l. Det finns några få sådana problematiska ord som spælæ som bryter mot reglerna för när man förväntar sig att l:et är tjockt.
Vet du förresten varför l:et i spælæ är tunt? :wink: (Jag vet svaret. Ta en titt på etymologin så inser du också.)

Aszev wrote:Samma fråga för det frikativa l:et. Om jag inte misstar mig förekommer det bara i anslutning till s og t? Om det inte finns "vanliga" l i de positionerna behöver du ju inte heller märka ut detta ljud på något särskilt sätt.

Ja, du har fullkomligt rätt, och jag hade naturligtvis inga specialtecken för tonlösa konsonanter förut pga att de är helt komplementära med de tonande.

Aszev wrote:Sedan undrar jag også hvad ŗ är tänkt att stå för?

Det står för ett tonlöst r, i de allra flesta dialekter realiserat som [ʂ], även om Hammerdalsmålet ligger på det äldre stadiet [ɾ̥] (dvs ett äkta tonlöst r som i isländska). Exempelvis så har man ju mòŗne [<sup>2</sup>mɔʂɳ] 'mörkna', där [<sup>2</sup>] står för tvåstavighetsaccent trots att ordet är enstavigt (sic!). (Detta ord antyder att man kanske måste använda diakrit. Skulle du ha skrivit "mòrne"? Hur vet man då att r:et är tonlöst!?)

(NB: Verbet mòŗne uttalas dock [<sup>2</sup>mɑɳ ̥] i Hammerdalsmål, dvs med ett tonlöst retroflext n, och [<sup>2</sup>mɔʂɳə] i sydvästjämtska.)
Last edited by Hunef on 2007-12-27, 17:34, edited 4 times in total.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Aszev » 2007-12-27, 17:31

Hunef wrote:Vet du varflr l:et i spælæ är tunt? :wink:
Kan det ha att göra med att spælæ haft en främre vokal framför l:et men tælæ haft en bakre?

Hunef wrote:
Aszev wrote:Samma fråga för det frikativa l:et. Om jag inte misstar mig förekommer det bara i anslutning till s og t? Om det inte finns "vanliga" l i de positionerna behöver du ju inte heller märka ut detta ljud på något särskilt sätt.

Ja, du har fullkomligt rätt, och jag hade naturligtvis inga specialtecken för tonlösa konsonanter förut pga att de är helt komplementära med de tonande.
Då skulle iallafall inte jag använda en onödig diakrit.

Hunef wrote:
Aszev wrote:Sedan undrar jag også hvad ŗ är tänkt att stå för?

Det står för ett tonlöst r, i de allra flesta dialekter realiserat som [ʂ], även om Hammerdalsmålet ligger på det äldre stadiet [ɾ̥] (dvs ett äkta tonlöst r som i isländska). Exempelvis så har man ju mòŗne [<sup>2</sup>mɔʂɳ] 'mörkna', där [<sup>2</sup>] står för tvåstavighetsaccent trots att ordet är enstavigt (sic!). (Detta ord antyder att man kanske måste använda diakrit. Skulle du ha skrivit "mòrne"? Hur vet man då att r:et är tonlöst!?)

(NB: Verbet mòŗne uttalas dock [<sup>2</sup>mɑɳ̥] i Hammerdalsmål.)
Är detta tonlösa r komplementärt på samma sätt som det tonlösa l:et?

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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-27, 17:44

Aszev wrote:
Hunef wrote:Vet du varflr l:et i spælæ är tunt? :wink:
Kan det ha att göra med att spælæ haft en främre vokal framför l:et men tælæ haft en bakre?

Helt korrekt - spila vs tala.

Aszev wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Aszev wrote:Samma fråga för det frikativa l:et. Om jag inte misstar mig förekommer det bara i anslutning till s og t? Om det inte finns "vanliga" l i de positionerna behöver du ju inte heller märka ut detta ljud på något särskilt sätt.

Ja, du har fullkomligt rätt, och jag hade naturligtvis inga specialtecken för tonlösa konsonanter förut pga att de är helt komplementära med de tonande.
Då skulle iallafall inte jag använda en onödig diakrit.

Inte jag heller, och jag använde ingen heller tills nyligen då jag insåg att det krävs nån specialbehandling för att få acceptans. Och jag hatar de digrafer som andra jämtar använder (hl, rs etc). Då är diakriter det enda rimliga lösningen.

Aszev wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Aszev wrote:Sedan undrar jag også hvad ŗ är tänkt att stå för?

Det står för ett tonlöst r, i de allra flesta dialekter realiserat som [ʂ], även om Hammerdalsmålet ligger på det äldre stadiet [ɾ̥] (dvs ett äkta tonlöst r som i isländska). Exempelvis så har man ju mòŗne [<sup>2</sup>mɔʂɳ] 'mörkna', där [<sup>2</sup>] står för tvåstavighetsaccent trots att ordet är enstavigt (sic!). (Detta ord antyder att man kanske måste använda diakrit. Skulle du ha skrivit "mòrne"? Hur vet man då att r:et är tonlöst!?)

(NB: Verbet mòŗne uttalas dock [<sup>2</sup>mɑɳ̥] i Hammerdalsmål.)
Är detta tonlösa r komplementärt på samma sätt som det tonlösa l:et?

Nej, tydligen inte. Det verkar som att detta är förknippat med det faktum att k som ger tinlöshet i sig har försvunnit i några ord, t.ex. myrkna > mòŗne. Nå, hur skulle du skriva här? Du svarade aldrig förut.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan


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