Jamtlandic (Jamsk'/Jamske)

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Postby Hunef » 2007-11-30, 22:21

kuneli wrote:
Hunef wrote:Bokkjen, thanks for the information about the origin of the form Jamtlandic rather than tyhe more logical Jamtish (or "Yamtish"?).

skye wrote:It's enough information for me, but if you care to answer I'll read that too. Thx.

In Jamtlandic (or Jamtish/Yamtish or whatever the anglified name would be), the progressive i-umlaut exists only after a consonant. Examples: fjall > fjell 'mountain', hjarta > hjert' 'heart', bjór > bjør 'beaver', krjúpa > krýp' 'creep' etc. If the j was initial, it never caused the umlaut. Examples: jafn > jamn 'even', jörð > jórð 'earth' etc. The reason there was a blocked umlaut if j was initial is that it got sharpened to a phonetic [j] rather than kept as a non-syllabic vowel [ɪ]. (It's still the case that the initial j is more consonantic than the non-initial j. Cf. jamn [jamn] vs hjert' [ɪæ.æʈː].)


Hej Hunef, jag heter danai och e från grekland.tackar för informationerna du ofta ger till oss alla och jag menar inte bara det som du skrivit här "ovanpå", utan allt du berättar om för oss på andra sidor som t.ex. om Färöiska, vanligen i samtal med den karlen, Mulder.

(På svenska.) Ja, Mulder är en trevlig grabb.

kuneli wrote:Jag visste veerkligen inte att Jämtska och Älfdalska är språk och inga svenska dialekter.

Jämtska är en skandinavisk dialekt närmast besläktad med den norska tröndska dialekten. (Kan sägas vara en försvenskad variant av den.) Älvdalska är ett skandinaviskt språk i lingvistisk mening, men är svenskan mycket närstående (kan sägas vara "sen fornsvenska", dvs så som svenska talades århundradena innan medeltidens slut).

kuneli wrote:Känner du kanske nån site var jag kunde möjligen läsa om dem?

Det finns väldigt få intressanta sidor om jämtska. Du kan pröva denna, men den har inte utvecklats på minst fem år. Desto mer finns om älvdalskan. Här finns en hel del samlat.

kuneli wrote:Tack i alla fall och jg hoppas att du fortsätter att (be-)/upp-lysa oss...
Hoppas det är svenska det jag just skrev här..det blir många år jag varken skrev eller talade på ditt språk...

Mitt språk är jämtska. :wink:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2007-11-30, 22:30

Aleco wrote:Har du ordna i stand noen rettskrivning for jemtsk ennå, da? :D Åssen går du fram? Snakker du med jemtfolk rudnt om der du bor?

Have you made some ortography for Jamtlandic yet? :D How do you things? Do you talk with Jamtlandic people where you live?

It's still in progress. I am leaning towards a spelling with a vowel system consisting of
    a à e è i ì o ò u ù y ỳ ø å ei au ey
Note that the diphthongs (which not always are phonetical diphthongs, e.g. eydd [œdː] 'exhausted, consumed, expended, used up') are considered as separate vowels, cf. Dutch ij which surprisingly is a member in the alphabet on its own! :lol:

The diacritic vowels (except the extraordinary å) are more open than the vowels without diacritics. Thus, e.g., bìt 'bite' (noun) is pronunced [betː]! :lol:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby kuneli » 2007-11-30, 23:40

Hunef wrote:
kuneli wrote:
Hunef wrote:Bokkjen, thanks for the information about the origin of the form Jamtlandic rather than tyhe more logical Jamtish (or "Yamtish"?).

skye wrote:It's enough information for me, but if you care to answer I'll read that too. Thx.

In Jamtlandic (or Jamtish/Yamtish or whatever the anglified name would be), the progressive i-umlaut exists only after a consonant. Examples: fjall > fjell 'mountain', hjarta > hjert' 'heart', bjór > bjør 'beaver', krjúpa > krýp' 'creep' etc. If the j was initial, it never caused the umlaut. Examples: jafn > jamn 'even', jörð > jórð 'earth' etc. The reason there was a blocked umlaut if j was initial is that it got sharpened to a phonetic [j] rather than kept as a non-syllabic vowel [ɪ]. (It's still the case that the initial j is more consonantic than the non-initial j. Cf. jamn [jamn] vs hjert' [ɪæ.æʈː].)


Hej Hunef, jag heter danai och e från grekland.tackar för informationerna du ofta ger till oss alla och jag menar inte bara det som du skrivit här "ovanpå", utan allt du berättar om för oss på andra sidor som t.ex. om Färöiska, vanligen i samtal med den karlen, Mulder.

(På svenska.) Ja, Mulder är en trevlig grabb.

kuneli wrote:Jag visste veerkligen inte att Jämtska och Älfdalska är språk och inga svenska dialekter.

Jämtska är en skandinavisk dialekt närmast besläktad med den norska tröndska dialekten. (Kan sägas vara en försvenskad variant av den.) Älvdalska är ett skandinaviskt språk i lingvistisk mening, men är svenskan mycket närstående (kan sägas vara "sen fornsvenska", dvs så som svenska talades århundradena innan medeltidens slut).

kuneli wrote:Känner du kanske nån site var jag kunde möjligen läsa om dem?

Det finns väldigt få intressanta sidor om jämtska. Du kan pröva denna, men den har inte utvecklats på minst fem år. Desto mer finns om älvdalskan. Här finns en hel del samlat.

kuneli wrote:Tack i alla fall och jg hoppas att du fortsätter att (be-)/upp-lysa oss...
Hoppas det är svenska det jag just skrev här..det blir många år jag varken skrev eller talade på ditt språk...

Mitt språk är jämtska. :wink:


TAKK I ALLE FALL, DA.

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Postby Aleco » 2007-12-01, 18:11

Looks interesting! So you prefer the "ù" rather than "ú"? Anyway, I am glad you put this much effort into making it :wink: I can't wait for examples as you finish it!

And another thing: How come it's bìt for /bet:/ and not [i]bìtt[/b]?
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-01, 20:42

Aleco wrote:Looks interesting! So you prefer the "ù" rather than "ú"?

Yes, ú would denote an old long vowel rather than an intended old short vowel. I came to the conclusion that it's the old short vowels that have changed the quality the most so they need the diacritic. In Icelandic and Faroese it's the old long vowels which have changed the most so that's why they get the diacritic.

Aleco wrote:Anyway, I am glad you put this much effort into making it :wink: I can't wait for examples as you finish it!

As soon as local people start to understand the importance of my work, I will begin writing a book or something. I know some local publishers with a local niche.

Aleco wrote:And another thing: How come it's bìt for /bet:/ and not bìtt?

Because I want to keep the number of vowels and condonants intact with respect to Old Norse. And let's say I would invoke West Trøndish with their palatal consonants (from old long consonants). Then it's aboslutely crucial to have an intact number of consonants. Thus, if and only if Old Norse had a single consonant, the orthography gets one too.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Aleco » 2007-12-01, 21:10

OK, I get it all now - I think.

Anyway, I think it's great that you'll write a book as soon as they get their eyes up! As well as a publisher really may go for it! I wish you good luck, and of course, as I said, more info as the project develops :mrgreen:
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-01, 21:14

Aleco wrote:OK, I get it all now - I think.

Anyway, I think it's great that you'll write a book as soon as they get their eyes up! As well as a publisher really may go for it! I wish you good luck, and of course, as I said, more info as the project develops :mrgreen:

I did have a meeting with the founder of the publishing company, but he retired from it one year ago, and he'd dfinitely have encouraged me to write a small book on the topic. I am not sure what the new, more commercially oriented owners will say about the project. And I need to find time for the writing.
Last edited by Hunef on 2007-12-01, 22:38, edited 1 time in total.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Aleco » 2007-12-01, 21:16

Yeah I see :? Too bad he retired. Wel, there is nothing else to do than go have another meeting anyway ;) Good luck!
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Postby Bokkjen » 2007-12-03, 18:12

Hunef wrote:
    a à e è i ì o ò u ù y ỳ ø å ei au ey

So.. You've decided to use the Swedish übernationalistic letter of å? :wink:

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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-05, 21:02

Bokkjen wrote:
Hunef wrote:
    a à e è i ì o ò u ù y ỳ ø å ei au ey

So.. You've decided to use the Swedish übernationalistic letter of å? :wink:

No, others have decided it for me. I'd prefer another letter, preferrably á like in Icelandic in Faroese (and normalized Old Norse). :evil:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Aleco » 2007-12-06, 18:49

Others? :lol: I guess all the people of Jamtland are too used to it? Though, they are quite fond of their language and should be very open and acceptable to an own ortography; with or without å :P
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Postby Travis B. » 2007-12-06, 19:07

Hunef wrote:
Bokkjen wrote:
Hunef wrote:
    a à e è i ì o ò u ù y ỳ ø å ei au ey

So.. You've decided to use the Swedish übernationalistic letter of å? :wink:

No, others have decided it for me. I'd prefer another letter, preferrably á like in Icelandic in Faroese (and normalized Old Norse). :evil:

I have to say myself that I preferred the more Old Norse-esque orthography, without å, with æ, with the acute rather than grave diacritic. Yes, it may not follow continental Scandinavian sensibilities, but I actually like normalized Old Norse orthography as well as the modern Icelandic and Faroese orthographies better than the modern continental Scandinavian ones.
secretGeek on CodingHorror wrote:Type inference is not a gateway drug to more dynamically typed languages.

Rather "var" is a gateway drug toward "real" type inferencing, of which var is but a tiny cigarette to the greater crack mountain!

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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-06, 23:07

Travis B. wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Bokkjen wrote:
Hunef wrote:
    a à e è i ì o ò u ù y ỳ ø å ei au ey

So.. You've decided to use the Swedish übernationalistic letter of å? :wink:

No, others have decided it for me. I'd prefer another letter, preferrably á like in Icelandic in Faroese (and normalized Old Norse). :evil:

I have to say myself that I preferred the more Old Norse-esque orthography, without å, with æ, with the acute rather than grave diacritic. Yes, it may not follow continental Scandinavian sensibilities, but I actually like normalized Old Norse orthography as well as the modern Icelandic and Faroese orthographies better than the modern continental Scandinavian ones.

I couldn't have said it better. Thanks.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Aleco » 2007-12-07, 6:46

So if you like the acutes more; why graves?

(Sorry if I have failed to see the answer of this question already :oops: )
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Postby Mulder-21 » 2007-12-07, 11:28

I still can't see why you couldn't have both e.g. è and é. I mean, it doesn't really make a difference how much it has changed, I mean it's enough that it has changed, right? Or what?
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-07, 23:15

Aleco wrote:S if you like the acutes nore; why garves?

Because I am not the only one who's supposed to use it. I have been trying to promote the acute accent since the late 90's but without significant success. :?
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-07, 23:17

Mulder-21 wrote:I still can't see why you couldn't have both e.g. è and é. I mean, it doesn't really make a difference how much it has changed, I mean it's enough that it has changed, right? Or what?

Why both è and é? The point is that é is supposed to be an old long vowel (and thus e the old short one) while è is supposed to be the old short vowel (and thus e the old long one). This means they can't be used simultaneously.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Aleco » 2007-12-08, 10:19

Hunef wrote:
Aleco wrote:So if you like the acutes more; why graves?

Because I am not the only one who's supposed to use it. I have been trying to promote the acute accent since the late 90's but without significant success. :?


I think it's weird people favor graves over acutes :? Acutes are even simpler to write and they sure look more natural, if you get what I mean :P What are the letters of the present alphabet? That 'Jemska akademien' or something made one, didn't they?
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Postby Hunef » 2007-12-08, 23:43

Aleco wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Aleco wrote:So if you like the acutes more; why graves?

Because I am not the only one who's supposed to use it. I have been trying to promote the acute accent since the late 90's but without significant success. :?


I think it's weird people favor graves over acutes :?

It's not so more the accents themselves, rather on which vowels they sit. The thing is that I prefer a diacritic over old long vowels (like in Icelandic and Faroese), while others prefer diacritics over old short vowels (since it's those vowels who typically are different from the Standard Swedish ones). The grave vs acute is secondary - I could propose a system with acute accent on old short vowels, but it feels stupid.

Aleco wrote:Acutes are even simpler to write and they sure look more natural, if you get what I mean :P

Indeed, but as I wrote above, it's not the grave vs acute which is the main issue, rather the old long vowels vs old short vowel (i.e., where to put a diacritic).

Aleco wrote:What are the letters of the present alphabet? That 'Jemska akademien' or something made one, didn't they?

The Academy has an orthography, indeed. But noone follows it (except perhaps for Bo Oscarsson who's actually compromising - he wishes a more etymological spelling too, but he compromises due to democratical reasons, he told me last time we met a couple of weeks ago).
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Aszev » 2007-12-09, 12:29

Could you post some sample words using your new way of writing the vowels?


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