Ko Te Marae Reo Maori - The Maori Language Marae

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2006-06-05, 6:05

Kia Ora,

nō Waikato rāua ko Hauraki au. E noho ana au i Tāmakimakaurau, ā, e haere atu ana hoki ki te whare wānanga o Tāmakimakaurau ako ai i ngā ture o te reo Māori o Aotearoa nei, me ngā ture o te reo Māori o te Kuki Airani (reo Rarotonga).

feel free to participate. I've been busy for a long time though.

There is another Hawai'ian language student here too - his username is kman1.

You'll find a lot of similarities and differences between Māori (NZ) and Hawai'ian.

If your knowledge of Hawai'ian is adequate enough, feel free to open a VSL for the Hawai'ian language :).

All the Polynesian languages offered here lack interest from users. The way I came to this conclusion was that there is very little or no interaction between the tauira and the kaiako (teacher). I would really like people to be more interactive rather than doing 'private' studies....
Last edited by Ariki on 2006-06-29, 0:31, edited 1 time in total.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

User avatar
mgayoub
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-02-25, 15:15
Real Name: Mikhai'l Ayyub
Gender: male
Location: Tampa, Florida
Country: US United States (United States)

Postby mgayoub » 2006-06-07, 17:17

Stan wrote:riki I'm not sure how to pronounce "wh", do you have any sound files that would be helpful?

I don't know the difference between an English f and a "soft f"

:wink:
"wh" is a voiceless bilabial fricative (X-SAMPA /p\/) while English "f" is labiodental.

To make the "wh" sound, put your lips together, as for "b" or "p", but do not close them; instead, blow air through your lips.

Alternatively, pronounce /f/ and slowly move your bottom lip from your teeth to right below your top lip.

I hope this helps.

EDIT: I just realized how old that post is. Oh well. Hopefully this still helps someone.
العربية لغة جميلة

MySpace

Mamo
Posts: 555
Joined: 2006-06-14, 21:56
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Postby Mamo » 2006-06-09, 5:36

Riki,

I was looking over some of the Maori lessons, but since I'm learning Hawaiian it's difficult for me to stop trying to use my Hawaiian language skills in understanding Maori. With that aside, I've developed a few questions.

First, in Maori there is the word au and the word ahau, which if I'm not mistaken both mean I. What are the rules governing the use of one instead of the other, and how do you say me in Maori (in Hawaiian it's ia'u, a combination of iā and au}?

Second, I noticed these two sentences in one of your examples to mean "I (will) understand a lot of the new words soon":
1)Ākuanei ka māramangia e au he maha ngā kupu hōu.
2)Ākuanei e māramangia ai e au he maha ngā kupuhōu.
3)He maha ngā kupu hōu e māramangia nei e au.
I noticed that in these three sentences, you used the passivized version of a verb māramangia. Is it common to express things in Maori through using the passive form of verbs, or is it just common to use this type of passive construction when using the verb for "understand?"

Third, you wrote above that in negation, the order is Negative + Subject + Verb phrase. Does the subject come after the negative even when the subject is a regular noun, and does the subject come after the noun if it is a proper noun?

Fourth, I noticed that in the sentence "Kei te pēhea ia?" the word ia, which I'm assuming means he/she/it, stands without a nominative particle preceding it. In Hawaiian, ia is usually preceded by the nominative particle 'o, so it is pronounced 'o ia, although sometimes it stands alone with just ia. Does Maori have this kind of nominative particle? Perhaps if you do not have this type of particle in front of the word ia, you may have it before proper nouns.

Fifth, I've noticed that when speaking about the current state of something in Maori, you've used the ke te verb subject pattern and the e verb ana subject pattern. Instead of saying ke te pai au, could a person say pai au? And if this is so, is the latter construction less common.

Sorry if these seem like a lot of questions. Most of these questions, as I addressed in the begginnig of this post, arose as a result of my using Hawaiian grammar when trying to analyze Maori, which I realize is a mistake. Still, it does open the door for some interesting discussion, which I am all too often lacking in the area of the Hawaiian language since we have such a small number of speakers and a fading body of elderly, native speakers.

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2006-06-09, 21:58

Kia Ora!

No, I love grammar related questions (to Māori languages).

Please, keep on asking them as they arise.

There is no rule governing the usage of either - they are both dialectal to each other (and as you will notice, the personal article 'a' is attached to 'hau' when written down).

They both stand for me, and they do not became 'kiāku' or 'iāku' (to me, with me etc) as you would expect if you were to add a 'k' to every glottal stop in Hawai'ian. I'm not too sure which one is the older, however, Rarotongan does use the two that I have typed above (kiāku, iāku) as well as Tahitian (with glottal stops), but the Māori language of Tongareva (northern part of the Cook Islands) expresses 'me' in the same way as the Māori language spoken here in Aotearoa.

Yes, unlike the other Eastern Polynesian languages, Māori spoken in Aotearoa uses the passive suffix quite extensively. There are also a lot of passive suffixes, but 'tia', 'hia' and 'ngia' will be the most common ones encountered.

Yes, Māori does have a personal article, which is 'a'. However, I have also read 'ko ia' where 'a' would be normally used. These days, 'a' gets dropped from the sentence (it speeds up the language dropping it).

Kei te + verb and e + verb + ana are nearly identical (except e + verb + ana type sentences are slightly ambiguous, because they can be used for past, present and future. But not for 'kua' for completed action).

It's ok to analyse the grammar of Māori via the grammar of Hawai'ian because the grammars of both are so close. Its also quite handy, just to see how both have diverged from each other over time as well.

Please ask more questions! :D
Last edited by Ariki on 2006-06-09, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

User avatar
Nukalurk
Posts: 5842
Joined: 2004-04-23, 20:45
Gender: male
Location: Berlin
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Postby Nukalurk » 2006-06-09, 22:45

Can't you please do something to make your macroned letters appear? :(

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2006-06-09, 23:29

Ok, I'm so stupid. I remember what you wrote in the other forum. Perhaps you should make it your signature to remind me ;)?
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2006-06-09, 23:49

Sorry if these seem like a lot of questions. Most of these questions, as I addressed in the begginnig of this post, arose as a result of my using Hawaiian grammar when trying to analyze Maori, which I realize is a mistake. Still, it does open the door for some interesting discussion, which I am all too often lacking in the area of the Hawaiian language since we have such a small number of speakers and a fading body of elderly, native speakers.


I believe it is quite possible to reverse this situation. But to reverse, everyone in the community needs to be speaking it - not just the tamariki (children). Do they have Hawai'ian tv over there? I know over here in Aotearoa, that we have a channel dedicated to Māori, where more than 50% of the prime time content is spoken te reo Māori (such as Te Kaea, the Māori news broadcast).

What has worked well for te reo Māori here, has been the preservation of 19th century journals and letters in the Māori language. This huge body of literature (which spans the entire archipelago of Aotearoa) encompasses in it not only the Māori language, but the Māori mode of thought as well as ancient songs, chants, proverbs and sayings. These have a been a great source of jubilation for many students of the Māori language, and there is a current push from our Māori language academy (Te Taura Whiri I Te Reo Māori) to publish a fully monolingual dictionary with in the Māori language. Also, they administer external tests one can take to test their general Māori language proficiency, as well as translation (with which you can become a fully accredited and licenced translator on being successful), as well as proficiency in teaching te reo Māori (through the language) as well as proficiency in public service.

I have sat any of the tests yet, but perhaps next year I will. Anyway, here is the site.

1)Ākuanei ka māramangia e au he maha ngā kupu hōu.


This one virtually preserves the English sentence structure.

2)Ākuanei e māramangia ai e au he maha ngā kupuhōu.


This one, I'm iffy about, like any other Polynesian language speaker. The reason, is purely because at all costs 'anaphoric' ai is avoided at all costs (its a speaking style). I believe you will cover it soon enough (the rules governing its usage in Hawai'ian seem identical to the ones in the other Tahitic languages). This sentence is also half-Māori half-English type sentence construction. While the placement of phrases can be quite flexible, I think there can be a better way of saying this (this doesn't mean that the translation here is wrong or doesn't work, its just me being more picky now).

3)He maha ngā kupu hōu e māramangia nei e au.


I forgot ākuanei (soon). So, not a good translation. The 'o' in hou can be both short and long.

As for those sentences quoted above, I've never been completely happy with them (I believe I typed them up in response to what someone else requested - this is going back a bit).

Below, is a revised translation.

Soon, I will understand many new words

Ākuanei, he maha ngā kupu hou e māramangia e au

I think that would be a more precise translation. Although translation is a very effective way of learning another language, I still believe it is one of the most hardest jobs in the world. My motto is, just because you speak two languages doesn't automatically make you a good translator :wink: I'm ever conscious of translation, and, as a general rule of thumb, I always like to go back and revisit earliler works of translations (from Eng-Māori, Māori-Eng).
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2006-06-17, 9:49

Ah she is a treasure! Kia pūrungia ia e koe!

It's a shame that such a taonga as the Hawai'ian language isn't broadcasted and heard even more!

I often like logging on to the Hawai'ian language newspaper database and reading all of the old newspaper articles. I can understand some of it, but a lot of it (which I suspect to be words from Marquesan) uses a lot of words that I'm not familiar with in the other Māori languages.

Our word for native speaker is - kaikōrero taketake (lit. speaker native).

Ko te mea pōuri, kua mate kē atu ngōku tūpuna. My grand parents have already passed on.

I believe that with the right amount of determination, that you will become a kaikōrero taketake of te reo Hawaiki.
Last edited by Ariki on 2006-10-18, 5:50, edited 1 time in total.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

Mamo
Posts: 555
Joined: 2006-06-14, 21:56
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Postby Mamo » 2006-06-19, 6:03

Thank you, Ego and Riki, for your words of encouragement. I cannot express the exhilaration I feel, having come across other speakers of the Polynesian languages, such as the two of you, who appreciate both the urgency of restoring the indigenous languages of the Pacific and the importance of the kūpuna (elders, ancestors) in preserving native identity and passing on traditional knowledge to their successive generations. This has inspired me to learn as many Polynesian languages as possible, and I think I'll start with Tongan and standard New Zealand Māori. However, I'm afraid that I may accidentally spill vocabulary over from Tongan and Māori into my Hawaiian.

Riki, I'm impressed to read that you can understand the Hawaiian texts from the Hawaiian language newspaper database, since the old newspapers don't include the glottal stop or the macron, but I'm not surprised since you already speak three languages closely related to Hawaiian. If you're interested, you should visit the website http://ulukau.org/. The website has a massive number of Hawaiian language resources, including over forty, digitized books written in the Hawaiian language, with macrons and the glottal stop, and the books are available for download at no cost. Some of the books, such as He Mo'olelo Ka'ao no Kekūhaupi'o and the Hawaiian Monarchy Series, have English translations available on the same page as the Hawaiian language versions. The book Ke Ka'ao o Lā'ieikawai also has an English version available for download, but it is not on the same site so you would have to find it on Google listed as "The Romance of Laieikawai."
Also, if you want to study some advanced Hawaiian grammar, you can go to the website http://www.uatuahine.hawaii.edu/papa/default.html, and on the site you can click on the link "papa" (classes), and on the page that it takes you to you can click on the link Haw 452 Fall 2005. On the page for Haw 452, you will find several papers concerning advanced Hawaiian grammar, and the words that lead to the separate papers are in blue.
Last edited by Mamo on 2006-06-30, 6:17, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2006-06-19, 6:46

Kia ora na koe,

Don't be too concerned with your Hawai'ian vocab spilling over in to NZ Māori and Tongan. More than 50% of the vocab found in Hawai'ian is also in NZ Māori (it's actually around 70%) and Tongan (maybe at around 60%).

Riki, I'm impressed to read that you can understand the Hawaiian texts from the Hawaiian language newspaper database, since the old newspapers don't include the glottal stop or the macron, but I'm not surprised since you already speak three languages closely related to Hawaiian.


I learnt to read NZ Māori without macrons, the same with CI Māori (and that's without the glottal), and the same for Tahitian. Plus, it helps that Hawai'ian is reasonably close enough to all three languages which I have a command in. Cook Islands Māori shares 80% of its vocab with Hawai'ian (despite the fact that it must look completely foreign because of the consonants it has retained, and the ones it has lost!)

Thankyou for the link, hemamonahaloanakaukapalili. This link here is to go to a website where a lot of scannings of NZ Māori newspapers from the 19th century have been uploaded to.

http://www.nzdl.org/cgi-bin/library?a=p ... i&nw=utf-8

Do a search for Hawai'i, and you should be able to find an article where a man from Hawai'i gets interviewed, as well as an article discussing whether or not Hawai'i is the main Hawaiki from which we come from (they compare two identical chants). We also have the story about Pare and Hutu (the man who goes to the underworld to save a woman who killed herself because of her love for him).

Thank you, Ego and Riki, for your words of encouragement. I cannot express the exhilaration I feel, having come across other speakers of the Polynesian languages, such as the two of you, who appreciate both the urgency of restoring the indigenous languages of the Pacific and the importance of the kūpuna (elders, ancestors) in preserving native identity and passing on traditional knowledge to their successive generations


Anytime, I believe in the worth of saving our tūpuna (ancestral) languages and preserving them for future generations - and by networking with other Polynesian societies we're building a strong link with our own customs and those found elsewhere in the Pacific, as way to protect ourselves from being labelled as liars and being accused of making up things on the spot.

I encourage you to continue on with your Hawai'ian studies, and go on to do post graduate work at university(as I will do for Māori studies). More people like you are needed through out the Pacific.
Last edited by Ariki on 2006-10-18, 5:48, edited 1 time in total.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

Mamo
Posts: 555
Joined: 2006-06-14, 21:56
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Postby Mamo » 2006-06-21, 4:34

Riki,
I'm looking for a comprehensive dictionary of Maori, which includes the glotal stop and the macrons, and in which the maori entries are also broken up into stress groups to aid with pronunciation [the way the Hawaiian Dictionary does with words like 'o'olo.kū ]. What do you recommend?

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2006-06-21, 5:08

Kia Ora,

H.W (or is it M, I've forgotten) Williams' Dictionary of the Maori Language of New Zealand is the best place to start. It marks vowel length, but it doesn't mark the glottal stop where it occurs in the dialects where there are glottal stops.

But as a general rule, glottal stops occur where a 'h' would be in the other dialects e.g. ahi = a'i.

It doesn't mark where stress occurs - I'll have to type that up (there are two general rules which decides where stress occurs in Māori.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

Mamo
Posts: 555
Joined: 2006-06-14, 21:56
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Postby Mamo » 2006-07-01, 10:10

Kia ora,

Okay, I'm back again with more questions concerning the maori language. Recently in Riki's posts, I've noticed Maori possesive pronouns starting with ng-, such as ngōu, ngōku, etc. Given that the t- was replaced with the ng- I have assumed that these are plural forms. I'm slightly familiar with making plurals in words like tēnei, tēnā, tēlā, tōku, tōu, tōna... etc., by deleting the t- at the beginning of the word, which I have assumed is a remnant of the singular definite article te. So is the ng- at the beginning of these possesives a kind of plural form, and if so can this ng- form be used with the other determiners, such as tēnei or taua, to make them plural instead of deleting the t- in the beginning?

This process of creating plurals is different to me because in Hawaiian, with the acception of the singular definite article (ke/ka) and the rare plural article kau, the words mau, po'e, or wahi, follow the determiner to make it plural.

Another thing that I noticed right away in Maori was it's use of passive and nominative suffixes. Hawaiian has these, but they don't function in exactly the same way as in Maori. In Hawaiian, some words with passive suffixes are only passive when used with the causative/simulative ho'o, and some verbs with passive suffixes are used as verb transitives, verb intransitives, or verb statives. In earlier Hawaiian, one way to make an imperative sentence was through passivizing the verb like in Maori, but as far as I know it is now rarely used in conversation, but quite common in the chants which I'm reading in He Mo'olelo no Kamapua'a. Also, some verbs with nominative suffixes in Hawaiian have different meanings from their bases. It is much more common in Hawaiian to passivize verbs with the the particle 'ia and to nominalize verbs with the particle 'ana, which are now both written seperately from the verbs, than to make extensive use of the suffixes. Does the Maori language have these particles 'ia and 'ana in addition to it's suffixes?

Sorry, one more question. How do you negate class inclusion sentences (He akonga ahau) and equational sentences (Ko Mamo tōku ingoa) in the Maori language.

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2006-07-01, 23:17

Tēnā rā koe e hoa,

Okay, I'm back again with more questions concerning the maori language. Recently in Riki's posts, I've noticed Maori possesive pronouns starting with ng-, such as ngōu, ngōku, etc. Given that the t- was replaced with the ng- I have assumed that these are plural forms. I'm slightly familiar with making plurals in words like tēnei, tēnā, tēlā, tōku, tōu, tōna... etc., by deleting the t- at the beginning of the word, which I have assumed is a remnant of the singular definite article te. So is the ng- at the beginning of these possesives a kind of plural form, and if so can this ng- form be used with the other determiners, such as tēnei or taua, to make them plural instead of deleting the t- in the beginning?


t substitution (which is what it would be called) only occurs in a few dialects (such as the one I speak). It is not an overall feature of NZ Māori - where t-deletion is the norm (on the East Coast, South Island and South Western coast and the centre of the North Island). In the far north, 'w' generally replaces 't' (however, I haven't seen it being used to pluralise all 't' determiners - it seems to me that speakers use 'w' when 'w' glides occur between vowels such as ko wēna).

Ng can be used to pluralise tēnei and taua. However, standard NZ Māori 'tētahi' is 'tētehi' in my dialect, and its plural form, ngētehi, can also act as singular (which I guess must be confusing for a lot of people who don't speak my dialect!).

In Hawaiian, some words with passive suffixes are only passive when used with the causative/simulative ho'o, and some verbs with passive suffixes are used as verb transitives, verb intransitives, or verb statives. In earlier Hawaiian, one way to make an imperative sentence was through passivizing the verb like in Maori, but as far as I know it is now rarely used in conversation, but quite common in the chants which I'm reading in He Mo'olelo no Kamapua'a. Also, some verbs with nominative suffixes in Hawaiian have different meanings from their bases. It is much more common in Hawaiian to passivize verbs with the the particle 'ia and to nominalize verbs with the particle 'ana, which are now both written seperately from the verbs, than to make extensive use of the suffixes. Does the Maori language have these particles 'ia and 'ana in addition to it's suffixes?


Māori has no glottal stops so when I do list the cognates they may not be recognisable at first. Māori has a plethora of passive suffixes and nominalisation suffixes. They are written at the end of the word, and are still identified as being part of the word rather than acting seperately and independent from it.

The passive suffixes are listed below, with the pronominalising suffix in brackets -

hia (hanga), kia (Hawaiian 'ia) (Hawaiian 'ana, kanga), mia (manga), ria (ranga), tia (tanga), whia (whanga), ngia (nga), ea (anga), whina (whanga), hina (hanga), mina (manga), kina (kanga), rina (ranga), ina (inga), a (nga, anga), na (nga), nga (nga, anga).

Sorry, one more question. How do you negate class inclusion sentences (He akonga ahau) and equational sentences (Ko Mamo tōku ingoa) in the Maori language.


Nominal sentences (including sentences of possession and actor emphatic i.e. māku, nāku etc etc) are all negated via 'ehara'.

E.g. ehara au i te akonga - I am not a student.

Ehara tōku ingoa i a Mamo. However, some speakers do accept 'ehara tōku ingoa ko Mamo'.

Ehara nāku te tamaiti i whakamamae ki te mamae!

I didn't inflict the child with pain!

However, an older way found in manuscripts would negate actor emphatics like this -

ehara i a au te tamaiti i whakamamae ki te mamae!

where the possessive particle transforms in to 'i' (however, whether i is acting as locational or object marker I don't know - I suspect locational).

Sorry for not typing up the rules to stress words in Māori. I've been busy lately. It's on my to do list however.
Last edited by Ariki on 2006-07-05, 4:42, edited 1 time in total.
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

Mamo
Posts: 555
Joined: 2006-06-14, 21:56
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Postby Mamo » 2006-07-02, 4:29

Māori has no glottal stops so when I do list the cognates they may not be recognisable at first. Māori has a plethora of passive suffixes and nominalisation suffixes. They are written at the end of the word, and are still identified as being part of the word rather than acting seperately and independent from it.


This is a revelation to me. I didn't know that Māori doesn't have the glottal stop. Now many more things are making sense. I remember picking up a book written in Māori from the school library and not finding any glottal stops or macrons. Instead, the vowels were typed twice in areas where I would expect a macron (ā was written aa). I remember thinking how difficult it would be to read a Polynesian script without glottal stops. I feel a bit relieved.

I looked at the examples of negations you gave in Māori, and the pattern appears to be different from Hawaiian. I'll give examples of the Hawaiian versions of these sentences for the sake of interest.

1)Ehara au i te akonga.
'A'ole au he haumana.

2)Ehara tōku ingoa i a Mamo
'A'ole 'o Mamo ko'u inoa.

3)Ehara nāku te tamaiti i whakamamae ki te mamae
'A'ole na'u ke kamaiki i hō'eha. It could also be: 'A'ole 'o wau ka mea nāna ke kamaiki i hō'eha.

Ka kite anō,
Mamo

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2006-07-02, 5:01

Kia Ora Mamo :D

This is a revelation to me. I didn't know that Māori doesn't have the glottal stop. Now many more things are making sense. I remember picking up a book written in Māori from the school library and not finding any glottal stops or macrons. Instead, the vowels were typed twice in areas where I would expect a macron (ā was written aa). I remember thinking how difficult it would be to read a Polynesian script without glottal stops. I feel a bit relieved.


I guess the benefit for me, is that I speak a language where glottal stops don't exist (except for in Taranaki and Whanganui dialects), so for me, I can make easy transitions between different Polynesian languages where glottal stops are a feature and deduct which consonants have eroded even in Tongan - even though it has preserved PPN *h and PPN *?, they are both reflected back in to Māori as h/0 and 0.

Even though I have said what is your name is 'ko wai tōu ingoa', it can also be 'ko hai tōhou ingoa' (which reflects Tongan more closely).

I'm glad that you care so much about the sound system.

1)Ehara au i te akonga.
'A'ole au he haumana.

2)Ehara tōku ingoa i a Mamo
'A'ole 'o Mamo ko'u inoa.

3)Ehara nāku te tamaiti i whakamamae ki te mamae
'A'ole na'u ke kamaiki i hō'eha. It could also be: 'A'ole 'o wau ka mea nāna ke kamaiki i hō'eha.


That certainly is certainly interesting. I'll have to double check 'ehara tōku ingoa ko Mamo' seeing the Hawai'ian version helps me spring back in to mind that ehara could just be placed at the front. Ehara ko Mamo tōku ingoa also looks ok, however, I myself use 'ehara tōku ingoa i a Mamo'.

Although to some people (well, certain linguists) that Hawai'ian comes across as a language radically departing from the other Eastern Polynesian languages, those negation features remind me of the negation features used by speakers of Māori on the island of Tongareva in the Cook Islands.

They negate nominal sentences with 'engere' (where r is pronounced as 'l').
So - Engele ko Mamo tōku ingoa

or engele ko tēnā ko tēia hoki! - It's not that one it's this one!

My knowledge of the Māori language of Tongareva is quite limited, but the limited chances I've had in being able to listen to it, it has been for the most part mutually intelligible.

So, out of interest, how would one say in Hawai'ian 'not a problem!'. In Māori it would be said -

Kāore he raruraru!

in Cook Islands Māori -

'Aitā 'e pe'ape'a!

How would you say it in Hawai'ian???
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

Mamo
Posts: 555
Joined: 2006-06-14, 21:56
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Postby Mamo » 2006-07-02, 6:33

So, out of interest, how would one say in Hawai'ian 'not a problem!'. In Māori it would be said -

Kāore he raruraru!

in Cook Islands Māori -

'Aitā 'e pe'ape'a!


In Hawaiian, saying 'not a problem' could be done in a few ways.

1)'A'ole ia he pilikia. - lit. It isn't a problem.
It could also be expressed 'A'ole he pilikia, or 'A'ole pilikia.
2) He mea 'ole wale nō - lit. It is merely nothing.

In Hawaiian, saying 'no' is simply 'a'ole, but it is commonly pronounced 'a'ale, though never written that way. In Hawaiian, 'a'ole can be used almost universally to negate a wide range of sentence patterns.

Examples:
1) 'A'ole au he ali'i - I am not a chief.
2) 'A'ole kēlā nohea ke kumu - That good-looking person is not the teacher.
3) 'A'ole i holo nā mokuahi i Moloka'i - The steamboat did not sail to Moloka'i.
4) 'A'ole a'u keiki - I have no children.
5) 'A'ole au ma ka hale o ku'u lūau'i makua kāne - I am not at the house of my beloved father.
6) 'A'ole hana pēnā - Don't act like that.
7) Inā 'a'ole au, inā ua make 'oe - If not for me, then you would have perished.

I should add a comment about examples 4 and 6. In the sentence pattern of example 4, it is now more common to here 'a'ohe instead of 'a'ole, since 'a'ohe is commonly used to mean "none." However, in older Hawaiian 'a'ole and 'a'ohe were interchangeable. Also, in example 6, I used 'a'ole to mean "don't." While it is acceptable, this is probably a foreign introduction. It is more proper for native speakers to use "mai" in the place of 'a'ole to mean "don't," so it would be "Mai hana pēnā."

Below is a list of all negatives in Hawaiian, off the top of my head.

1)'A'ole - No, not, none, etc... It can substitute 'a'ohe, and it is commonly pronounced 'a'ale.
2) 'Ole - same as 'a'ole, but usually used medially in the sentence.
3)'A'oe - same as 'a'ole, but obsolete.
4)'E'oe - same as 'a'ole, but obsolete.
5)'A'ohe - used mostly to mean "none" now days, but can substitute 'a'ole, and it is sometimes pronounced 'a'ahe. Some speculate that 'a'ohe is a combination of 'a'ole + he.
6) Mai - don't
7)'E'ole - if not for

User avatar
Ariki
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2004-10-01, 14:53
Real Name: Tāne
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)

Postby Ariki » 2006-07-02, 6:51

Kia ora mō tēnā,

I've decided to translate your examples (English -> Māori) to try and help illustrate all the different negations.

1) 'A'ole au he ali'i - I am not a chief.

Ehara au i te ariki.

2) 'A'ole kēlā nohea ke kumu - That good-looking person is not the teacher.

Ehara tērā tangata pai i te kaiako.

3) 'A'ole i holo nā mokuahi i Moloka'i - The steamboat did not sail to Moloka'i.

Kīhai te tīma i tere ki "Moloka'i".

Kīhai/kīhei is used for past negations - however, kāore, kāre and kāhore and horekau are also used.

4) 'A'ole a'u keiki - I have no children.

Kāore āku tamariki

Kāre and kāhore can also be used - they are synonymous to kāore.

5) 'A'ole au ma ka hale o ku'u lūau'i makua kāne - I am not at the house of my beloved father.

Kāore au i te whare o tōku matua kāmehameha

6) 'A'ole hana pēnā - Don't act like that.

Kaua e (mahi) pēnā

Kauaka and aua are both synonymous to 'kaua'. 'e' can be replaced with 'hei'. 'Mahi' means 'work'.

7) Inā 'a'ole au, inā ua make 'oe - If not for me, then you would have perished.


Mēnā i kore au, kua make kē koe.

Mei kore could also be used.

As for future negation, e/ka kore can be used, however, kāre, kāhore and kāore can also be used for future negations.

E kore ia e haramai! He will never come!

Kei, koi - don't, lest

Kei takahia koe e te arewhana! Don't in case you get trampled by the elephant!

Kei haere mai! Don't come!

Tē - verbal particle.

Tē is the only verbal particle in Māori that acts as a negator, and, where the word order remains uninterrupted. It is generally only used for past negation, and, is one of the hardest particles to recognise in manuscript writing since it looks identical to 'te', where 'te' it self can also act as a verbal particle. E.g.

I haere mai ia!
Tē haere mai ia!

He didn't come!!

All the variations that I have typed up, do turn up in both speech and writing.

Noho ora mai
Linguicide IS genocide. :)

He ingoa ōpaki a Riki; he ingoa ōkawa a Ariki.

Riki is an informal name; Ariki is a formal name.

User avatar
Nero
Posts: 3111
Joined: 2006-01-28, 2:43
Real Name: Thomas Leser
Gender: male
Location: New York
Country: US United States (United States)

Postby Nero » 2006-08-16, 23:04

A question Riki, how intelligible are the polynesian languages to one another? I mean, would you understand a speaker of Tahitian or of Rapanui, or Hawaiian without learning their language?
coded in javverscript

User avatar
Nero
Posts: 3111
Joined: 2006-01-28, 2:43
Real Name: Thomas Leser
Gender: male
Location: New York
Country: US United States (United States)

Postby Nero » 2006-11-12, 1:39

Kia ora,

Thanks Riki for your quick answer - I feel bad that I haven't replied back for a few months! :lol:

I've been watching Te Karere online for a little while now. I am very happy, for 2 reasons:
1. People are speaking and broadcasting news in a minority language (instead of just letting it die)
2. In the broadcast, everyone from children to older people are speaking Maori. VERY good to see :D

Can you tell me, what is the status of Maori right now in New Zealand? For example, do you hear people in the streets talking more in English or Maori to one another? Do people address strangers more with "Hello" or "Kia Ora"?
coded in javverscript


Return to “Polynesian Languages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests