The letter t in older (and modern?) Hawaiian

[Wine thshortstop]

Has anyone seen in writing (or heard) the letter t where, by "modern orthography", the letter k might be expected? (I already know of otole [rather than okole] and Waititi [used in the 1830s] rather than Waikiki.)
e.g. Tamehameha, rather than Kamehameha.

[Mello]

Has anyone seen in writing (or heard) the letter t where, by "modern orthography", the letter k might be expected? (I already know of otole [rather than okole] and Waititi [used in the 1830s] rather than Waikiki.)
e.g. Tamehameha, rather than Kamehameha.

That happens all the time. Both K and T sounds exist although the consensus is to write with a K. The same thing happens with the letter W since people pronounce them as W's or V's. So I guess you just need to remember that things aren't always going to be pronounced the way they're written.

[Ariki]

Aloha kakou apau,

Has anyone seen in writing (or heard) the letter t where, by "modern orthography", the letter k might be expected? (I already know of otole [rather than okole] and Waititi [used in the 1830s] rather than Waikiki.)
e.g. Tamehameha, rather than Kamehameha.

Hm. Can't think of a time where I have heard t where k would have been obligatory in standard orthography. However a great Niihauan text is available for order online called Aloha Niihau. I purchased a copy myself. Its a collection of memories transcribed in Niihauan that describe Niihauan life and culture by native speakers of the Niihauan dialect. The book is bilingual and does not follow modern standard orthography (so no macrons etc).

What I observed about the Niihauan dialect may interest learners of Hawaiian. It would seem that the letter k is not obligatorily replaced by t. For example the word kakahiaka in Niihauan can be pronunced as takahiaka where we might have expected tatahiata.

Personally I would recommend that learners of Hawaiian language (and any Polynesian language for that matter) take some basic courses in linguistics because a good grounding in phonology helps in understanding why words can be written one way and pronunced another.

[Nohola]

Aloha kakou apau,
Hm. Can't think of a time where I have heard t where k would have been obligatory in standard orthography.

There are 2 words that I know off hand where we pronounce the T and write it as well. The Tuahine rain, and there is Tutu. There's also the name of the platform where Laka performed on where they use the T instead of the K.

[Boki]

Has anyone seen in writing (or heard) the letter t where, by "modern orthography", the letter k might be expected? (I already know of otole [rather than okole] and Waititi [used in the 1830s] rather than Waikiki.)
e.g. Tamehameha, rather than Kamehameha.

if you're referring to the modern book learned Hawaiian taught by non-native speakers then no. for some reason they have a bias against the Niihau dialect and ancient Hawaiian language and perpetuate the lie that there is no T in the Hawaiian language. this is an insult to Niihauans and some book learned Hawaiian language professors at UH actually have the nerve to correct Niihauans on the correct pronunciation of Hawaiian. They do this because they hate the truth and feel it delegitimizes what they have learned. Niihauans are the most authentic Hawaiian's we have left and they need to be respected and honored. They were born thinking in Hawaiian and English is a second language to them. they are not Americanized as much as the rest of us with Hawaiian blood. Their paradigm and worldview started from Hawaiian unlike us. For those of us with Hawaiian blood born into an American world not speaking native Hawaiian, not being taught by native speakers this is our reality.

In ancient Hawaiian before foreign missionaries removed the letter "T" in 1826 by a five to four vote then yes. The letter T was and always has been a part of the Hawaiian language. the Niihau dialect never stopped using the letter T.

here are just a few ancient Hawaiian words containing the letter T. these words are from all of the islands that I have collected over the years. ironically these words were recorded by the first Europeans to encounter the Hawaiian language and also William Ellis and those who made the first Hawaiians spelling book before they erroneously voted out the letter T.

Ta'aao -
Taura - Kaula Island
Tahitiri
Taiana
Taimaro
Tahi-o-Paia/Rahaina - Hawaiian princess
Taimaro
Tairi - Tamehameha's war-god.
Taitiri
Taa ua
Tau-ai - Kauai
Ta'aau
Taaua - Name of a Hawaiian chief.
Tapuli - Queen of Ta-Umu-Arii
Taraiopu
Ta-Meha-Maru -
Taneoneo
Ti-i - Image/Idol
Towaihae - Kowaihae
Ta-Umu-Arii (The Gentle Chief) - Kaumualii's real name
Ta-Hau-Ra-We - Kahoolawe
Teave - The eternal spirit, the creator
Tenui - Hawaiian Name
Toteta -
TUTUI - candlenut
Ua Taua - It is war!
Waititi - Waikiki
Wauti - Paper mulberry

[Boki]

Has anyone seen in writing (or heard) the letter t where, by "modern orthography", the letter k might be expected? (I already know of otole [rather than okole] and Waititi [used in the 1830s] rather than Waikiki.)
e.g. Tamehameha, rather than Kamehameha.

my advice to everyone is to learn the Niihau dialect and not some book learned Hawaiian which was invented by foreign missionaries. Since some of us with Hawaiian blood hate ha'ores (haoles) so much why would you want to perpetuate their version of our language?

The letters of the Hawaiian alphabet were established in 1826 by a committee of missionaries who used letters to represent the sounds as they heard them. At this time, the change from t to k had begun on the island of Hawai‘i but had not reached Kauai where t was used until comparatively recent times. Colonel Spaulding, from the reports to the American Board of Missions in Boston, prepared a paper read before the Hawaiian Historical Society in 1930 in which he showed how the alphabet was compiled. The committee of nine missionaries took various letters in turn and voted on them. The final report, facetiously headed ‘Report of the Committee of Health on the state of the Hawaiian language’, set forth its conclusions in terms to justify the name assumed by the committee.

The greatest difficulty was experienced in choosing between l and r, k and t, and w and v. ‘K is deemed of sufficient capacity to perform its own functions and that of its counterpart T. L though two pills have been given to expel it is to remain to do its own office and that of its yoke fellow R. R though closely connected with the vitals is expelled by five or six votes or expellants, though nearly the same quantity of preservatives has been applied. T though claiming rights as a native member has suffered amputation by the knife and saw of the majority. V, a contiguous member and claiming similar rights, has suffered the same fate, and a gentle [illegible] has been applied to dry the wounds of both.' Thus the committee of health experts chose l, k, and w, but as r, t, and v are the consonants used in Tahiti, whence the Hawaiians came, I have a feeling that the purgatives and the knife were applied to the wrong patient in each pair.

[Ariki]

my advice to everyone is to learn the Niihau dialect

And just exactly how would people learn the Niihau dialect if said dialect is only spoken by people on Niihau and the western end Kaua'i which are not easily accessible to any one?

not some book learned Hawaiian which was invented by foreign missionaries.

And how did the missionaries learn Hawaiian then

but as r, t, and v are the consonants used in Tahiti, whence the Hawaiians came,

The problem with that argument is that the Maori came from Tahiti too and use w, k (the original k which became glottal stop in Hawaiian) and ng which would make both Tahitian and Hawaiian wrong as neither use any of those consonants. In fact New Zealand Maori w predates v. The evidence from Samoan and Tahitian combined prove this is so. For example -

'O ai? - who is it?

Between the o and a there is a w glide.

In New Zealand Maori the same question is asked -

Ko wai?

and then in Tahitian

'O vai

This shows a change from w to v...

[ILuvEire]

I was taught that in Hawaiian is extensive allophony. The sound represented by the letter T is [t] or [k], and that it Hawaiian doesn't make a distinction between [t] or [k]. I think the phone is /k ~ t/, right? Same for /l ~ r/ and /w ~ v/ etc.

[Ariki]

I think the phone is /k ~ t/, right? Same for /l ~ r/ and /w ~ v/ etc.

Yes that is correct for Hawaiian historically though modern Hawaiian as spoken outside of Niihau has pretty much from what I've seen changed t to k, r to l and v to w though I would say watch this space because if enough speakers of Hawaiian will it to be we could see those other consonants back in full force. But to call k, l and w missionary Hawaiian is very dishonest.

[ILuvEire]

Yeah, I also learned that, maybe should have put it out there.

[Ariki]

Yes until such time that there are more proficient speakers/native speakers who use t in preference to k and r in preference to l and v in preference to w it is unlikely that any of these three consonants will be added onto the standard orthography. If you go to Maoliworld.com and take a look at a few people's pages who speak Hawaiian t as a consonant does get used...