Prussian (Prūsiskan)

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Oleksij
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Prussian (Prūsiskan)

Postby Oleksij » 2005-10-23, 13:22

Hey, is there anyone around here interested in Prussian? (not me, I just posted it, so the sub-forum isn't in the foetus stage anymore)
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Postby Mantaz » 2005-10-23, 13:28

I was the initiator of this subforum, but suddenly got a lot of job to do and didn't have a lot enthusiasm to do something for this place, but in nearest future I definitely will ;)

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Postby projetdefleur » 2005-10-26, 15:46

Please do! My ancestors came to America from Prussia. I believe learning some of the language would be nice :)
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Postby Stan » 2005-10-26, 17:42

is there even anyone who can teach it? :?
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Postby Mantaz » 2005-10-26, 18:48

Kails!

Well, I have a grammar book and I'm a Baltic speaker, thus for me it's not hard to learn another Baltic language. Actually there's one other man Glabbis, who lives in modern Kaliningrad and speaks Prussian, so he might sometimes help as well.

@projetdefleur Was your ancestors Germans from Prussia or ethnic Baltic Prussians? (People usually confuse those).


For the start you might listen how does Prussian sound ;)
http://donelaitis.vdu.lt/prussian/01bangins.mp3

And dictionaries
http://donelaitis.vdu.lt/prussian/newdict.htm

Some other things just
http://donelaitis.vdu.lt/prussian/

And start from "to be" ;)

Singular
As asma :arrow: I am
Tuu assei :arrow: Thou are
Taans, Tena, Tennan ast :arrow: He, She, It is

Plural
Mees asmai :arrow: We are
Juus astei :arrow: You are
Teneei, Tenas, Teneei ast :arrow: They (m), They (f), They (n) are

Note that double letters are usually stress positions

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Postby Irrisim » 2005-10-27, 13:36

Mantaz, what about pronounciation?

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Starting point: orthography and pronunciation

Postby hleifr himins » 2005-10-30, 16:56

First of all, note that Prussian as a living language doesn't exist already for several centuries, so the reconstructed pronunciation introduced here in any case can be only hypothetical.

The modern orthography of reconstructed Prussian is very simple and clear. Every letter corresponds to a single sound, so there can be no difficulties trying to read and pronounce the Prussian text.

VOWELS

All Prussian vowels can be either SHORT or LONG (it shouldn't make any problems for speakers of other Baltic languages, also for those who know Ancient Greek, Latin, Sanskrit, etc.). The long vowels are marked by letters with a macron, i.e. the sign "-" over a letter, e.g. ā, ē, ī, ō, ū. If there's no technical possibility to use letters with a macron, you can use double vowels instead, e.g. aa, ee, ii, oo, uu.

Note that long vowels are available only in stressed position.

Here I give some examples of short and long vowels and an appropriate illustration of their pronunciation in words of other languages, first of all English (I mean standard British English pronunciation) and Lithuanian (as a genetically related Baltic language):

Sounds.Pruss..Lith....Engl.

a.......as......kas.....but
ā.......āsis....kaso....bar (not pronouncing r)

e.......ezze....neš.....mat (pronouncing shortly)
ē.......zemē...gėlė....Germ. Ehre

i.......miksis..kiša....fit
ī.......mīlin...kyšo....feet

ō.......perōni..koja....or (not pronouncing r)

u.......buttan..bus.....full
ū.......būtwei..būna....fool

Note:

* The short vowel o is very rare and is used only in international words, mostly in unstressed position. e.g. doktōrs, okupaciōni, etc.
Last edited by hleifr himins on 2005-10-30, 17:16, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby hleifr himins » 2005-10-30, 17:09

CONSONANTS

Most of Prussian consonants can be either SOFT (palatalized) or HARD (not palatalized). The palatalization ("softness") can be marked:

- by putting a sign "," under or over letters k, g, t, d, n, r, for example: ķ, ģ, ţ, ņ, ŗ: ķāsi, waiţātwei;

- by adding a letter j after consonants b, f, m, p, w, for example: pjausē, etc. This way could be used also when there's no possibility to use letters with a sign "," e.g. waitjaatwei instead of waiţātwei etc.;

- all consonants become soft if they stand in position before front vowels (e, ē, i, ī), e.g. pelks, keptun, ni, tītis, etc.

Notes:

* The sound L is always soft in modern Prussian pronunciation, so Lithuanians must remember that complex la should be always pronounced like Lith. le, lia, e.g. Pr. labban, lamtun, laītawis, etc.

* The sound R should be pronounced as a tongue-point trill, i.e. rather like r of other languages of Eastern Europe (Lithuanian, Russian, etc.) than like r of English, French or standard German.

* The sound W should be pronounced like English w, but I don't see a big problem if someone pronounces it like simple v.

* Š corresponds to English sh; this sound is always soft.

* S corresponds to English s and is always voiceless, while [s]Z[/s] corresponds to English (not German!) z and is always voiced.

* J = like y in the word year.

* C = German z.

* Č = English ch, [s]Ž[/s] = French j, but these two sounds are very rare in Prussian.

* Letters h, v, x, y are used only when citing foreign proper names.

* Other consonants not mentioned yet that don't need specific explanation, in my opinion: b, d, g, k, m, n, p, t. If the pronunciation of them is unclear, please do not hesitate to ask me.

* There are no double consonant sounds in Prussian. Double consonant letters, e.g. ss in word wissan, indicate the stress position in a word (see further) and are pronounced like simple consonants (wissan = [wisan] in the above mentioned case).

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Postby hleifr himins » 2005-10-30, 17:14

STRESS

The stress of the Prussian language is free, i.e. it is not fixed in any particular syllable (the first, the last, etc.) of the word. In most cases the orthography can indicate the stress position in a word:

- if the stressed syllable contains a short vowel, the consonant letter that stands after this vowel becomes doubled, e.g. wissan, kittan, buttan, etc.

- if the stressed syllable contains a long vowel, the macron (i.e. the lengthening sign of this vowel) shows that the syllable is stressed, because unstressed syllables simply cannot contain long vowels, e.g. ābli, zemē, bilītun, etc.

- if the stressed syllable contains a combination of two vowels (a diphthong), one of these vowels becomes lengthened and it has a macron which shows the stress position, e.g. āulaukis : aūlinis, āismus : aīstwei.

- if the stressed syllable contains a combination of a vowel and (con)sonant l, m, n, r, the vowel can have a macron and show the stress position of a word (e.g. kānkstai, kārtai, kēlkan, pērnai, īmtun, wīrds etc.) while the cases of theoretically prolonged (con)sonants l, m, n, r are not represented in the orthography. Thus this is a case when the orthography doesn't show the stress position, e. g. amzin, kanstun, spurglas, etc.

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Postby hleifr himins » 2005-10-30, 17:19

Irrisim wrote:what about pronounciation?


Hello. You can find the answer here:

http://home.unilang.org/main/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8435

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Postby Irrisim » 2005-10-30, 18:34

Excellent..!
Looking forward for more knowlegde of this language :) :)

Sami

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Postby Sauma » 2005-10-31, 21:09

Hello everyone,

I am going to join those willing to study Prussian, as well. Good luck to me and everyone.

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Postby Mantaz » 2005-11-03, 13:24

Thanks a lot for the explanation :) By the way, some words contain more long vowels, what do we do then?

***

Spārtai dīnkun pēr aīkstinsnan :) Prēi kitan, *some* wīrdai turri tūls īlgimuns *vowels*, kan mēs staddan dīlamai?

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Postby hleifr himins » 2005-11-04, 11:47

Do you mean the words like tāutā, tālkā, mārtī, stīgē, studīsnā etc.?

Actually, these words do not contain two long vowels; it is only a way how to show in a dictionary that the vowel is long when it is stressed; it also shows which part of a diphthong becomes lengthened in forms when this diphthong is stressed.

So the writing tāutā could be found only in dictionaries, but not in a real language. It means that nom. sg. form of this word has a stress on the second syllable (i.e. tautā), but there are also forms with a stress on the first syllable (e.g. accusative singular) and in this case the first (but not second) vowel of a diphthong becomes long (tāutan, but not taūtan).

The same is with stīgē, studīsnā. The macron on i means that this vowel is long, but only in cases when it is stressed. Nominative singular is stigē, studisnā. Accusative is stīgin, studīsnan (not stiggin, studisnan).

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Postby Mantaz » 2005-11-04, 12:59

Sauma wrote:Hello everyone,

I am going to join those willing to study Prussian, as well. Good luck to me and everyone.


Welcome and nice to see more people joining our group :D

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Mes mukinnimai si prūsiskan / We learn Prussian

Postby Mantaz » 2005-11-04, 13:17

Kails!

En šissei tēman mes mukinnamai si be prasījjamai prasīsenins be pagalban ezze prūsiskan.

Māise pirmāis prasīsenis ast: kāigi engērdautun "welcome" en prūsiskasmu? :D

Antrāis: anga ast labbāi gērdautun "Mes mukinnamai si prūsiskan"? Ikkai labbāi, staddan tikrinnateis tēmas pabīlisnan en "Mes mukinnamai si prūsiskan / We learn Prussian" (tēr mooderatorai hleifr himins be Glabbis mazzi stan dīlatun).

Dīnkun :)

***

Hi!

In this topic we practice and ask questions and help on Prussian.

My first questions is: how do we say "welcome" in Prussian? :D

Second: Is it good to say "Mes mukinnamai si prūsiskan" [We learn Prussian]? If it is good then please edit the thread title to "Mes mukinnamai si prūsiskan / We learn Prussian" (only moderators hleifr himins and Glabbis can do that).

Thanks :)

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-11-25, 21:22

Sveiki!
Mantaz wrote:And start from "to be" ;)

Singular
As asma :arrow: I am
Tuu assei :arrow: Thou are
Taans, Tena, Tennan ast :arrow: He, She, It is

Plural
Mees asmai :arrow: We are
Juus astei :arrow: You are
Teneei, Tenas, Teneei ast :arrow: They (m), They (f), They (n) are

Note that double letters are usually stress positions

In latvian, the verb ‘to have’ doesn’t exist. They say (like in estonian) :

Man ir : To-me is (I have)
Tev ir : To-you is (you have)
Viņam/Viņai ir
Mums ir
Viņiem/Viņām ir


What about prussian?
:wink:

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Re: Mes mukinnimai si prūsiskan / We learn Prussian

Postby hleifr himins » 2005-11-27, 19:47

Mantaz wrote:how do we say "welcome" in Prussian?

If you cannot find a word in a dictionary, it means the word hasn't been reconstructed yet.

Doesn't Glabbis have any suggestions for this word?

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Postby hleifr himins » 2005-11-27, 19:58

eurooplane wrote:In latvian, the verb ‘to have’ doesn’t exist. They say (like in estonian) :

Man ir : To-me is (I have)
Tev ir : To-you is (you have)
Viņam/Viņai ir
Mums ir
Viņiem/Viņām ir


What about prussian?
:wink:

There is a word for 'to have' in Prussian. It is turītun (similar to Lithuanian turėti, but not to Latvian constructions). It is conjugated like:

As turri
Tu turri
Tāns / tenā turri

Mes turrimai
Jūs turritei
Tenēi / tennas turri
Last edited by hleifr himins on 2005-11-28, 11:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mes mukinnimai si prūsiskan / We learn Prussian

Postby Mantaz » 2005-11-28, 7:11

hleifr himins wrote:
Mantaz wrote:how do we say "welcome" in Prussian?

If you cannot find a word in a dictionary, it means the word hasn't been reconstructed yet.

Doesn't Glabbis have any suggestions for this word?


Actually I found the saying in the book you gave me. If I remember correctly now, it's "Kails/a pergūbuns/a" :)


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