haitian creole language learning

Noz
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Re: I translated something

Postby Noz » 2006-12-25, 23:05

Sisyphe wrote:Not gospel truth or anything, but I would say:

M mande li kisa l'gen.* Li di'm gen yon batay ak** yon nèg*** ki kon chache li [akòz de trouble.] (I'm not familiar with this expression in French or Haïtian Créole...) « M pa mechan****, di'l, m vivan ye.
Raymond de L'Étranger par Albert Camus

Fraz sila a fèt di nan Meursault pa vwazen li ki rele Raymond - li gen abitid de batay. Li pa gen'l paske li patikilyeman mechan - se sèlmen grasa anvi li santi vivan. Vi li plen de bagay ki raman (fèt) aksepte nan sosyete.

* It is fine to say this, but it would be code-switching with French technically. 'kisa pwoblem li' is more Créolized. :wink:
** 'Ak' also sounds more Créolized - I even use it in French sometimes. :P
***Nèg=mec
**** the 'se pa ki mwen mechan...' construction is just too French-sounding - I changed it for this reason.
A few more notes:
-Ki is virtually unncessary in most practical situations. I will use it if I am talking to a Francophone who wants to hear Créole but still be able to understand it - with a few modifications, such as the 'ki', it's quite understandable to native French speakers.
-I don't know a rule, but you cannot always use 'youn' for the indefinite article - most of the times actually, it is 'yon' and not 'youn'.
-The passive is very, very rarely used in Haïtian Créole. It sounds awkward to my ears. If you insist on using it, then you must use 'fèt' for it. :)
This is quite good - how long have you been learning Haïtian Créole?

Your only real errors are in the particles. You do not use t'ap correctly. If you want to convey the French imperfect, use 'kon' 't'ap' is more like 's.o. used to do s.th.', if that makes sense to you. I have mentioned the use of the passive and the corresponding particle above as well. Also as I said before, my revision is not gospel truth. :P I've grown up in the Diaspora - never been to Haïti in my life. :bittercry: Good luck and hope to see you here soon! :wink:


Merci, this was just something I decided to do for fun one night. I'm fluent in French so it's really easy to switch between the two save as you have already noted some significant rules of grammar. I really appreciate the help with the passive voice. I looked everywhere but couldn't find any rules on it, it's quite difficult finding grammar rules on the internet but I figure as long as I have this message board I'll always have somebody to help me. 8)

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Postby Sisyphe » 2006-12-26, 3:29

Yeah, I'll always be here. :P The reason that you could find nothing on it is because it is so rare. :wink: The first time someone asked me about how to form it, I was actually puzzled....as were my relatives who I asked about it too. :shock: :oops:
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Postby Jofi-a » 2007-01-09, 20:00

This thread seems to have died... but I thought I'd add my 2 cents. Ta is more of a conditional, would, and used with ka (kapab) is a possible, could. Future is pral, va or a.
My understanding:
te bay - gave (simple past)
va bay (a bay) - will give (future)
ap bay - is giving (continuous)
pa bay - not give (eg. te pa bay -did not give
(in the past))
ta bay - would give
ta ka bay- could/might give
dwe bay - ought to give
ta dwe bay- should give (te pa ta dwe bay -
should not have given <previously>)

mesi anpil!

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-01-09, 22:45

Interesting...
Ta does mean would loosely translated, but you only need ka to express could, really. :) While we're at it, fo means should and pou means should. So that's the conditionals in a nutshell. :P There are nuances with pral and a. I have never heard or said va like this though, have you heard it when speaking with Haïtians, Jofi-a? :? Pral is like 'going to' while a is like 'will'.
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Postby Jofi-a » 2007-01-09, 23:13

I have not heard 'va' used. Pral only and that only in tapes. An older text I have (1948-63) says va is the future and is 'a' usually in northern districts. I have only seen pral and a in written form.

So my understanding is correct? Ta is would as in ta renmen... would like and ka (kapab) is could or 'has the ability to'?

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-01-09, 23:37

Don't use va - I've never heard it before and don't know where the book got something like that...perhaps the author mixed it with another Créole? I'd understand, but I'd never say it... My mother was born in Cap Haïtien (almost touching the border with the Dominican Republic and the Atlantic Ocean in the northeast), so that might be why I do say 'a'. To my knowledge though, it isn't limited to only the north. :)

Your understanding of 'ta' and 'ka' are indeed correct. :)
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Postby Jofi-a » 2007-01-10, 6:29

I am using a number of sources (some I own, some belong to cheri mwen).
You Can Learn Creole- McConnell & Swan (this is the text that Wally Turnbull 'updated'- Cheri owns Turnbull)
Speak Creole in No Time- Jeanty (with tapes)
Pimsleur Basic Creole Tapes- Pimsleur
Ann Pale Creole- Vardmann (with tapes- again cheri mwen)
The Airport booklet by Rincher
Wikipedia
My own compilation that I made from the minimal sources before I found the above info.

It is McConnell (and I think Turnbull as well) that say to use 'va'. McConnell says that they contract to 'a'... eg Mwen va vini => ma vini

Not to say they're right or wrong... just letting you know where I get this stuff from.

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-01-10, 6:41

Dako. M vlè konnen, poukisa w'ap aprann lang kreyol ayisyen nan? :) Cheri ou ayisyen ye? ;-)
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Postby Jofi-a » 2007-01-10, 7:15

Non, cheri mwen se Amerikann. L'ap adpote de petit yo Ayisyen- jimo- fre e se. Nou te voyaje la ba we yo oktob denye. Nou panse sa se inpotan gade istwa (heritage) yo. Creole se yon moso istwa sa a. Si nou aprann li pou yo.

E kreyol se yon bel lang, tou...

No, my cheri is American. She is adpoting two Haitian children- twins- brother and sister. We traveled there to see them last october. We think that it is important to hold on to their heritage. Creole is a piece of that history. So we are learning it for them.

And Creole is a pretty language, too

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Postby Jofi-a » 2007-01-10, 19:16

Oops..... again with 'yo'...

de petit Ayisyen yo- sa se dwat?

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-01-10, 21:41

Jofi-a wrote:Non, cheri mwen <se> Amerikan ye. L'ap adpote adopte de petit Ayisyen <yo> pa beswen itilize 'yo' paske ou te itilize chif ;-)- it'S redundant - se jimo - frè <e> ak sè. Nou te voyaje la ba wè yo oktob denye. Nou panse sa se inpotan gade istwa (heritage)m ositou pa konn epele sa... :oops: yo. Ak Kréyòl Creole se yon moso istwa yo. <Si>Alo <nou> N'ap aprann li lang sa a pou yo.

<E> Epitou kreyol se yon bel lang, <tou>...


Mezanmi! M kontan anpil tande ou ak dou-dou'w ap aprann krèyol ayisyen pou de jimo sila a. :) W'a change vi yo pou toujou, se altruiste anpil. ;-) Kounyè a m komprann parfèt poukisa w'ap aprann lang sa a. :praise: Ak ou pale byen anpil pou yon moun ki aprann krèyòl ayisyen depi twa mwa! :D Sa se pa mal ki ou itilize 'e', men m pito itilize 'ak' - m a pa 'korije' sa ankò paske sa pa vrèman yon fòt ye. M kiriye : kikote ou abite nan Etazuni?
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Postby Jofi-a » 2007-01-11, 20:39

Mezanmi... se "friend"? men ou itilize kom "Wow" oubyen "Amazing"... Eske se yon idyom?

Liv mwen di "se Amerikan" pa "Amerikan ye". Eske yo menm bagay-la. Kile m ta itilitze yon ou lot? Ak "alo"... eske sa se "alor" nan franse? M te panse sa se "hello", men alo m te chanje lespri m ak di "sa se 'alor' :idea: "... sila se yon rezon pou aksans, non?

OK- kisa "dou-dou" ye? sa pa son byen nan angle :wink:

M pa konprann itilize a 'sila a'. Pronon impersonel (sp) gen mwen troub.

"E" se vreman "epi"- nan angle "and" ak 'Ak' se vreman "avek"- nan angle "with", wi? Eske epi oubyen e soutenu pou ekri ye men 'kou' di 'ak' nan koze odine? Eske m konprann korektman? Nan koze di ou 'eske' ou itilize chanje nan vwa? M'a pale janm kom kou, m panse. :lol:

Mesi pou di m pale byen anpil. M panse m gen anpil anpil aprann toujou. M panse m pale kom "me want go not here! what want you?" Tarzan pale pi bon pase m. Men diskisyon nou ede m anpil. Mesi...

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-01-15, 3:33

Mezanmi... se "friend"? men ou itilize kom "Wow" oubyen "Amazing"... Eske se yon idyom?

Sa yon idyom. Sa vlè di 'wow'. ;-)

Liv mwen di "se Amerikan" pa "Amerikan ye". Eske yo menm bagay-la. Kile m ta itilitze yon ou lot? Ak "alo"... eske sa se "alor" nan franse? M te panse sa se "hello", men alo m te chanje lespri m ak di "sa se 'alor' Idea "... sila se yon rezon pou aksans, non?

Wi, se menm bagay la, men se plis fasil pou nou di 'Amerikan ye', alo mwen di sa. :P Alo=hello nan telefon
alò=alors nan franse

OK- kisa "dou-dou" ye? sa pa son byen nan angle Wink

dou dou= cheri= sweetie, darling

M pa konprann itilize a 'sila a'. Pronon impersonel (sp) gen mwen troub.

sa a=this
sila a=that
sa yo=these
sila yo=those

"E" se vreman "epi"- nan angle "and" ak 'Ak' se vreman "avek"- nan angle "with", wi?

Pou and ou ka itilize e, epi ak ak menm. :) Men mwen menm, m preske janm itilize e ak epi - euh... surtout (se franse :oops: = especially) e.

Eske epi oubyen e soutenu pou ekri ye men 'kou' di 'ak' nan koze odine? Eske m konprann korektman? Nan koze di ou 'eske' ou itilize chanje nan vwa? M'a pale janm kom kou, m panse.

m pa konn se m komprann...
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Postby Jofi-a » 2007-01-15, 6:16

You didn't understand my last bit? I was trying to ask if e or epi were more formal but ak informal speech. I also was wondering if, in ordinary colloquial speech, one used eske to make the question or just raise the tone of voice at the end of the sentance. Lastly I was decrying my likely ability to ever talk/write like a Haitian...

And Doudou...possibly from Dous de ou(sweet of yours)? Mow I'm reaching, I know! I'll try using that when talking to her and see what she thinks!!!

Possible bad news as well... Adopting from Haiti is an interesting, challenging and labyrinthine task... if you've ever read Kafka's The Trial, you get an idea of the feeling. Things seemed to be going well, but now the US gov has changed the rules. Now it looks like doudou m will have to wait longer for the papers to be resubmitted! Sigh... Deye mon gen mon ak deye papye gen papye!

O... Lakay mwen se nan gwo sudouest-la, Nouvo Meksiko!

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-01-15, 17:01

You didn't understand my last bit? I was trying to ask if e or epi were more formal but ak informal speech. I also was wondering if, in ordinary colloquial speech, one used eske to make the question or just raise the tone of voice at the end of the sentance. Lastly I was decrying my likely ability to ever talk/write like a Haitian...

Aaaah! E and epi do indeed feel more formal to me - I don't think I've said them readily in a conversation...In an informal question, it is not at all necessary to use èskè - you can ask the question purely by changing the intonation. I'm sure once you are surrounded by Haïtians, your ability to speak the language will improve tremendously. :D

And Doudou...possibly from Dous de ou(sweet of yours)? Mow I'm reaching, I know! I'll try using that when talking to her and see what she thinks!!!

You are stretching it a bit too much. :P I highly doubt this...

Possible bad news as well... Adopting from Haiti is an interesting, challenging and labyrinthine task... if you've ever read Kafka's The Trial, you get an idea of the feeling. Things seemed to be going well, but now the US gov has changed the rules. Now it looks like doudou m will have to wait longer for the papers to be resubmitted! Sigh... Deye mon gen mon ak deye papye gen papye!

Oh my! I'm sorry to hear this. :cry: I hope your perserverence will eventually pay off. You are doing such an altruistic thing for the twins. ;-) And a note, I prefer t say 'doudou mwen' instead of 'doudou m' - it feels more 'balanced' in a way.

O... Lakay mwen se nan gwo sudouest-la, Nouvo Meksiko!

Ak lakay mwen Californie ye. ;-)
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Postby Jofi-a » 2007-01-17, 20:25

M panse ki m te rale sans doudou... haha

Nou toujou tann pou nouvel de estati jimo. Nou espere tande pi tale pase pita.

Lakay ou nan Califonie? M panse nan Canada- m pa konne poukisa...

M ta renmen son-la de "doudou mewn" ositou. Pi bon pase "doudou m".

Mesi!

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-01-20, 1:22

Jofi-a wrote:M panse ki m te rale sans doudou... haha

Nou toujou tann pou nouvel de estati jimo. Nou espere tande pi tale pase pita.

Lakay ou nan Califonie? M panse nan Canada- m pa konne poukisa...

M ta renmen son-la de "doudou mewn" ositou. Pi bon pase "doudou m".

Mesi!

:lol: Itilize doudou mwen! ;-)

M abite nan San Diego - men w te pale vrè - m vini de Canada (Montréal).
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fredi

Postby david112358 » 2007-03-13, 19:34

Bonjou tout moun!

M gen yon kesyon. Me te we "shiver" tradui konsa: tranble (fredi). M'pa konnen si "fredi" se yon bon tradiksyon pou "tranble".

Kesyon-mwen se sa: Eskou ka sevi ak "fredi" nan memn manie komm "tranble"?

par egzamp:

"Le li two fwet, m'ap komanse tranble"

"Le li two fwet, m'ap komanse fredi"

Mesi,

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-03-14, 2:34

Bonswa david112358 :)

Pou reponn nan kesyon w, m ta di ki tranble ak fredi se toulede bon traduksyon yo pou "shiver" nan angle. Men, m pito di "fredi". Kitè'm di'w ki tranble ak fredi se pa toujou menm bagay la - tranble, se vrèman sanble nan 'tremble' nan angle - alo youn moun ta tranble si li se malad ou gen pè. M kwè moun nan yo sèl di fredi si yon moun frèt. M espere m fèk reponn klèman nan kesyon w. ;)

~Marcel
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Diksyonè kreyol-kreyol ayisyen ak gramè epi lengwistik

Postby masterches » 2007-04-05, 23:05

http://kreyol.masterches.net/

Bonjou,

Mwen kreye yon diksyonè kreyòl ayisyen "Online" : http://kreyol.masterches.net/

Li pwopoze :

#Yon diksyonè : definisyon ak sinonim, istwa, tradisyon, etimoloji, pwovèb, ak tradiksyon nan lot kreyol ak nan lot lang yo, non pwòp, jeografi ..etc

#Yon gramè : yon paj wiki ; gramè ak lengwistik


M'ap fè yon konpil de tout enfomasyon m'ap twouve e sa nou ap ban mwen.

Sa n'ap pale la se de "newolojizm"=mo nèf ou jan zòt ta vle crye li.
Adan paj mwen pwopoze nou an, n'ap twouve kek ekstè, kek atik kap raple prensip konstriksyon lang kreyol ayisyen an.
Prensip la sa yo sanm rijid, mem anpwen nan lang ki pa pou nou an byen regle.

Gade paj la e dim sa nou panse de li.



Ki jan pou nou patisipe :
1.ay anlè http://kreyol.masterches.net/
2. Si ou vle mete yon definisyon, yon ekspresyon, yon pwovèb, yon moman istwa, yon moun enpotan nan istwa peyi a : gade si mo ou fraz la ja la, nan ka sa a wap mete yon komantè sinon wap klike anlè "proposer une definition" oubyen "add a definition"; nou pe mete imaj, map mete-l nan baz de done mwen ni
3. Si ou vle korije yon definisyon : mete koreksyon ou tap fè nan komantè wap twouve anba mo ou vle modifye an.
4. Ou pe pwopoze definisyon nan lang kreyol karayib (mete nan definisyon an ki orijin kreyol li ye, kreyol gwadloup, matinik, giyan, reyinyon...etc )
5. M'ap valide definisyon an e m'ap mete li an paj si nesesè.

6.Nan pati "gramè kreyol ayisyen" : si ou vle patisipe nan kreasyon'l, klike anlè "Compte" anlè a goch nan meni-a e enskri w ; apre wap retounen nan gramè-a e ou pe edite li. Kote administrasyon an, mwen tini yon sovgad de paj-la avan'l te modifye.

Mwen se yon Ayisyen de la dyaspora e mwen ta renmen tini yon imaj korèk anlè lentènet. Se pou sa mwen ta renmen nou korije e nou kontribiye nan elaborasyon diksyonè sa a, ansiklopedi sa-a.
M'ap chache tout enfomasyon ki ofisyel ou ki veritab nan listwa d'ayiti (nou pa bizwen yon kreolizasyon kreyol ayisyen si nou genyen yon ekivalan nan lang pa nou )

Mèsi pou tout kontribisyon nou.
Korije'm si mwen fè fot.
Mèsi anpil.
Diksyonè-a kapab ay lwen lwen.


MasterChes


PS : pour les non creolophones, il s'agit d'un projet de dictionnaire creole-creole haitien avec un essai grammatical et linguistique.

Toute participation, commentaire et idées sont les bienvenues sur http://kreyol.masterches.net/


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