papiamentu language learning

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Abavagada
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Postby Abavagada » 2008-02-16, 15:53

Actually, I have another question already... spelling. Which kind should be used in the course? For example, if in Aruba, "house" would be "cas" but in Bonaire and Curacao, it would be "kas", which should the course be using? I don't know which Toksave used, nor which is more dominant, or even how extensive the differences are.

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Postby Abavagada » 2008-02-17, 1:15

I've got the first two lessons put together.

http://www.abavagada.net/papi/papi1-2.html

I would appreciate anyone looking it over and telling me what is wrong. There are a few things I suspect are wrong, but I can't be sure.

My two immediate questions are:
1) When is the plural form -nan added to a noun? For example, would "They are students" be "Nan ta studiante" or "Nan ta studiantenan"?

2) When using 3rd person singular "E", is it enough to use that, or does a gender marker need to be used ("E ta un homber." vs "E homber ta un homber.")?

Thanks,
Erik / Aba
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Postby dyjohen » 2008-02-18, 21:12

Abavagada wrote:Actually, I have another question already... spelling. Which kind should be used in the course? For example, if in Aruba, "house" would be "cas" but in Bonaire and Curacao, it would be "kas", which should the course be using? I don't know which Toksave used, nor which is more dominant, or even how extensive the differences are.

Erik / Aba


Well Toksave started with the Bonaire/Curacao papiamentu. I know the Aruba papiamento. The amount of papiamento speakers is rising, but for now papiamentu still have the most speakers. The rules of both are the same. Only difference is what letters are used and each island has its own set of special words.
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Postby dyjohen » 2008-02-18, 21:19

Abavagada wrote:1) When is the plural form -nan added to a noun? For example, would "They are students" be "Nan ta studiante" or "Nan ta studiantenan"?


In this case it would be "Nan ta studiante" because the nan at the begining already indicates that it is plural.

Abavagada wrote:2) When using 3rd person singular "E", is it enough to use that, or does a gender marker need to be used ("E ta un homber." vs "E homber ta un homber.")?


It would be "E ta un homber." :) No need for gender marker in this case. Actually gender markers aren't used at all in such sentances.
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Postby dyjohen » 2008-02-18, 21:34

I've looked at the excersise and I'm impressed. I do see a few things that may need changing. Unfortunatly I don't have a curacao papiamentu dictionary.

But in Papiamento it would be:

Voyage = Biahe
Salt = Salo

She's a teacher = E ta un juffrouw di skol

Boy = Mucha homber
Girl = Mucha muher (pronounced Mucha muhe) or chick which is used for older girls and can also mean "girlfriend" like in english.
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Postby Abavagada » 2008-02-18, 22:15

dyjohen wrote:I've looked at the excersise and I'm impressed. I do see a few things that may need changing. Unfortunatly I don't have a curacao papiamentu dictionary.

But in Papiamento it would be:

Voyage = Biahe
Salt = Salo


These were included to show how similar words were only different by their tones. However, if the words are actually different, as you are listing, then I should just remove that section, right?

dyjohen wrote:She's a teacher = E ta un juffrouw di skol

Is this generic or gender specific? I see I already goofed because was using "maestro" for a female teacher.

dyjohen wrote:Boy = Mucha homber
Girl = Mucha muher (pronounced Mucha muhe) or chick which is used for older girls and can also mean "girlfriend" like in english.


Would girl be "mucha muher" or "mucha muhé"?

Thanks for helping with this.. this is lessons 1-3 now: http://www.abavagada.net/papi/pap1-3.html

I am going to tackle numbers, plural nouns, and adjectives next. My question on numbers is forming something like 21. 20 = binti, and 1 = un.. so is 21 "binti un" or "binti i un"? I've seen it both ways now.

For dictionaries, I've found:
http://www.dicts.info/2/english-papiamento.php?e=mc2
http://www.wordgumbo.com/pc/pap/erpapeng.htm

And a translator (which isn't that good)
http://papiamentu.donamaro.nl/

Thanks again!

Erik / Aba
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Postby dyjohen » 2008-02-19, 2:59

I checked with my mom and those words are "Salu" and "Bia" in curacao and "Salo" and "Biahe" in Aruba

She's a teacher = E ta yefrou di skol
He's a teacher = E te mener di skol

Girl would be "Mucha muher"
So woman with child infront of it.

And 21 would be "Binti un" I think because 20 = binti and 1 = un. We just add them together. I'm not sure if its "binti-un" or "binti un" though.

Let me know if you need more :D Cause this is fun!
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Postby Abavagada » 2008-02-19, 3:44

Thanks for the info. I will be correcting these things. Also talked to Toksave online, and he told me "ta tin" is never allowed.. so my sentence "Mi ta tin un pushi" ("I am having a cat") isn't valid. Well, I thought it was rather an unusual sentence myself. :lol:

Glad you are enjoying helping. I'll have more tomorrow, I hope.

From what I can tell, nouns don't change forms except to make them plural sometimes with -nan. Also, adjectives never change, and they go after the noun they modify. Correct? That's going to be the main part of Lesson 4. Numbers, Nouns, Adjectives, Days, Months.

Erik / Aba
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Postby dyjohen » 2008-02-19, 4:32

Yes, "ta tin" is bad papiamentu. Although I've heard it spoken. I just knew it was wrong. :)

I am having a cat is a bit difficult for me to explain since I've never seen that sentance used in English.

I am going to school = Mi ta bayendo skol
I am seeing a house = Mi ta mirando un kas
I am reading a book = Mi ta lesando un buki

Past:
I had a cat = Mi tabatin un pushi
I went to school = Mi a bai skol
I saw a house = Mi a wak un kas

Past Continuous:
I used to go to school = Mi tabata bai skol
I am not tired = Mi no ta kansa

:D
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Postby Abavagada » 2008-02-19, 15:30

dyjohen wrote:Yes, "ta tin" is bad papiamentu. Although I've heard it spoken. I just knew it was wrong. :)

I am having a cat is a bit difficult for me to explain since I've never seen that sentance used in English.


It wouldn't be used in normal English. It sounds like you are either giving birth to a cat, or eating one for dinner.

Closest would be the Bart Simpons "Don't have a cow, man!"

dyjohen wrote:I am going to school = Mi ta bayendo skol
I am seeing a house = Mi ta mirando un kas
I am reading a book = Mi ta lesando un buki


So ta IS used with "-ndo"?
I thought it was either "Mi ta lesa un buki" or "Mi lesando un buki"

dyjohen wrote:Past:
I had a cat = Mi tabatin un pushi
I went to school = Mi a bai skol
I saw a house = Mi a wak un kas


is "wak" more correct than "mira"?

Erik / Aba
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Postby dyjohen » 2008-02-19, 17:38

Yes "ta" is used with -ndo. "Mi ta lesa un buki is good but "Mi lesando un buki" needs a ta in it. I don't know why. I guess its the "am" of "I am".

Mira = to look
Wak = to see
But I don't know which one is most used in Curacao. I think its the same as in Aruba. :wink:
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Postby Abavagada » 2008-02-19, 18:49

dyjohen wrote:Mira = to look
Wak = to see
But I don't know which one is most used in Curacao. I think its the same as in Aruba. :wink:


I am confused. For the sentences involving looking at or seeing a house, which should I be using.. "wak" or "mira".. you seem to be saying to use a mix, but I can't see a rational for it. How would you explain when to use one or the other?

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Postby dyjohen » 2008-02-19, 19:52

Sorry for the confusion. Since you were using Mira I used it too but actually the two can be used interchangably.
I would say "mi ta wak un cas" for "I am seeing a house" if someone asks me "Kiko bo ta wak?" (What are you seeing). You can also use "Mira mucha!" or "Wak mucha!" for "Look kid!"

For "look at that plane" I'd say "wak e avion ei".
Basically we use "wak" a whole lot more than "mira". Some people substitute "mira" completely with "wak"

The only time I'd really use "mira" is with "Mirando". "Wakiendo" is wrong so we say "mirando". I can't seem to think of any other examples in which "mira" or "mirando" is used. "Wak" is so common and fits with almost anything.
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Postby hrick » 2008-02-19, 20:28

Abavagada wrote:I've got the first two lessons put together.


Abavagada, that is cool, you will help a lot of people.

I am also making my notes into a webpages as I try to learn Papiamentu; the address is papiamentu365.com

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Postby Abavagada » 2008-02-20, 3:39

ok.. hopefully, I corrected the mistakes in the first 3 lessons and didn't make too many in lesson 4:

http://www.abavagada.net/papi/papi1-4.html

Any comments, suggestions, etc. :)

Erik / Aba
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Postby Abavagada » 2008-02-20, 3:46

hrick wrote:
Abavagada wrote:I've got the first two lessons put together.


Abavagada, that is cool, you will help a lot of people.

I am also making my notes into a webpages as I try to learn Papiamentu; the address is papiamentu365.com


I hope so :)

I like your page. Maybe these links will help:

http://www.dicts.info/2/english-papiamento.php?e=mc2
http://www.verbix.com/languages/papiamento.shtml
http://www.indopedia.org/Papiamento.html
http://www.une.edu.au/langnet/definitio ... mentu.html
http://bb.visitaruba.com/faq.php?faq=papiamento
http://www.bonairetalk.com/newsgroup/me ... /6390.html
http://www.narin.com/papiamentu/index.html

Just keep in mind that some of the pages differ from each other on certain aspects, so none of them are wholly reliable.

Erik / Aba
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Postby dyjohen » 2008-02-20, 20:13

Wow that was a big one :)

Just a few minor corrections.

One = un

She read the book = E a lesa e buki
She has a cat = E tin un pushi

I read a book = Mi a lesa un buki
I read books = Mi ta lesa buki
I have cats = Mi tin pushi
I read two books = Mi a lesa dos buki

New books = bukinan nobo
Tall men = hombernan altu
Big houses = Kasnan grandi

In Aruba we say "pret" instead of "chistoso" and "hundu" instead of "profundo"
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Postby Abavagada » 2008-02-20, 20:35

dyjohen wrote:Wow that was a big one :)

Just a few minor corrections.

One = un

She read the book = E a lesa e buki
She has a cat = E tin un pushi


Yea.. I just used the wrong word there.

dyjohen wrote:I read a book = Mi a lesa un buki
I read books = Mi ta lesa buki


This is one of the problems with that word "read"". It changes meaning based on pronunciation. When pronounces as "red", it's past tense. When pronouncesd "reed", it means present. I was meaning for those sentence to me in present, not in past.


dyjohen wrote:I have cats = Mi tin pushi
I read two books = Mi a lesa dos buki


So if there is no article, a noun is considered plural?

dyjohen wrote:New books = bukinan nobo
Tall men = hombernan altu
Big houses = Kasnan grandi


What I found online said that when used with an adjective, the "nan" is put on the adjective, not the noun. Is there a time when that would be the case?

Thanks,
Erik / Aba
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Postby dyjohen » 2008-02-20, 21:29

Abavagada wrote:
dyjohen wrote:I read a book = Mi a lesa un buki
I read books = Mi ta lesa buki


This is one of the problems with that word "read"". It changes meaning based on pronunciation. When pronounces as "red", it's past tense. When pronouncesd "reed", it means present. I was meaning for those sentence to me in present, not in past.


I don't know about "I read a book" Never heard that before. So I can't put it into papiamento.
"Mi ta lesa buki" is present though.

Abavagada wrote:
dyjohen wrote:I have cats = Mi tin pushi
I read two books = Mi a lesa dos buki


So if there is no article, a noun is considered plural?


Well since its one cat its "un pushi" and multiple cats is "pushi" and the same goes for "buki". I'm not quite sure about the rules though. The only time I can think of that it would be "pushinan" is if it has "ta" or something in the back of it.

Abavagada wrote:
dyjohen wrote:New books = bukinan nobo
Tall men = hombernan altu
Big houses = Kasnan grandi


What I found online said that when used with an adjective, the "nan" is put on the adjective, not the noun. Is there a time when that would be the case?


I've never seen that done. Its always on the "noun".
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Postby Abavagada » 2008-02-20, 22:58

dyjohen wrote:
Abavagada wrote:So if there is no article, a noun is considered plural?


Well since its one cat its "un pushi" and multiple cats is "pushi" and the same goes for "buki". I'm not quite sure about the rules though. The only time I can think of that it would be "pushinan" is if it has "ta" or something in the back of it.


Can you give me a few examples of when "nan" would be applied? If not, I might as well remove that part.

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