Elaine - Gaeilge

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-25, 19:27

Should the object of a normal verb (not verbal noun) be in nominative or genitive case?

e.g. feicim, ithim
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-25, 20:12

Caitlín wrote:Should the object of a normal verb (not verbal noun) be in nominative or genitive case?

e.g. feicim, ithim

If it's a direct object, it should be in the accusative case, which in Modern Irish is identical to the nominative.

I use "verb-noun" because in the contemporary language these have characteristics of both verbs and nouns. However, this is a relatively recent development; in Classical Irish, they were purely nominal in syntax. But the inflected genitive is on the retreat in contemporary Irish, and that's making them more "verby". There are fluent speakers who would say, "An raibh tú ag scríobh do leabhar féin?" and think nothing of it. But I don't know anyone who would say *"An raibh tú ag scríobh í?" instead of "An raibh tú (dh)á scríobh?" (lit. "Were you at her writing?")
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-25, 20:39

Thanks again!

Is mo chailín í Aoife. - Aoife is my girlfriend.
Is mo dheirfiúr í Úna. - Úna is my sister.
Tá gruaig fhionn ag Mallaidh. - Mallaidh has blonde hair.
Tá súile gorma ag Aoife, - Aoife has blue eyes.
Is buachaill Aoife é Oisín. - Oisín is Aoife's boyfriend.
Tá Gréigis maith agat. - You speak Greek well.
Bhog sé ó Shasana go hAlbain. - He moved from England to Scotland.

Which is correct (if both are correct, which is better)?
Labhraím Béarla.
or
Tá Béarla agam.
I'm asking this because an Irish friend of mine used the first pattern.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-25, 21:03

Caitlín wrote:Tá Gréigis mhaith agat. - You speak Greek well.

Gréigis, like all language names, is feminine.

Caitlín wrote:Bhog sé ó Shasana go hAlbain. - He moved from England to Scotland.

I know that people use bogadh in the sense of moving house nowadays, but I think aistriú is better Irish.

Caitlín wrote:Which is correct (if both are correct, which is better)?
Labhraím Béarla.
or
Tá Béarla agam.
I'm asking this because an Irish friend of mine used the first pattern.

Depends what you're trying to say. As in English, the simple present often has a habitual meaning, so I would interpret the first sentence as "[As a rule] I speak English." The second simply means that you possess the capability of speaking English. So it would be possible to say:

Ní labhraím Béarla ach tá Béarla agam.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-25, 21:15

linguoboy wrote:
Caitlín wrote:Bhog sé ó Shasana go hAlbain. - He moved from England to Scotland.

I know that people use bogadh in the sense of moving house nowadays, but I think aistriú is better Irish.


So the better version is "D'aistrigh sé ó Shasana go hAlbain."? And thanks for your help again. I'm learning more day by day, since you and Ciarán try your best to correct my Irish.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-25, 21:32

linguoboy wrote:
Caitlín wrote:Tá Gréigis mhaith agat. - You speak Greek well.

Gréigis, like all language names, is feminine.


Béarla is the one exception to that.

linguoboy wrote:
Caitlín wrote:Bhog sé ó Shasana go hAlbain. - He moved from England to Scotland.

I know that people use bogadh in the sense of moving house nowadays, but I think aistriú is better Irish.


aistriú might be more traditional, but people definitely say bogadh nowadays, so "better" depends on what you want to use Irish for (or, indeed, whether you want to use it at all or simply know it).
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-25, 21:44

Ciarán12 wrote:so "better" depends on what you want to use Irish for (or, indeed, whether you want to use it at all or simply know it).

Fair play dhuit. Níl léirthuiscint agam in aidhm atá ag Caitlín agus ní mian liom dóigh a dhéanamh dem' thuairim.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-25, 23:24

Go raibh míle maith agat!

Tá deartháir ag Caoimhe. - Caoimhe has a brother.
Tá Gaeilge mhaith agat, a Chaoimhe! - You speak Irish well, Caoimhe!
Tá cara Turcach ag Caoimhe. - Caoimhe has a Turkish friend.
Ní fhuair mo bhean bás. - My wife didn't die.
Ní fhuair mo fhear bás. - My husband didn't die.
Ar mhaith leat caife Turcach a ól? - Do you want to drink Turkish coffee?
Tá an teach seo díolta. - This house is sold.
Ba mhaith liom spéaclaí gréine a cheannach. - I want to buy sunglasses.
Ar mhaith leat damhsa liom? - Do you want to dance with me?
Tá mé ag éisteacht leis an t-amhrán seo. - I'm listening to this song.
Is mise do chara. - I'm your friend.
Féachfaidh mé ar an teilifís. - I'll watch television.
Éistfidh mé leis an raidió. - I'll listen to the radio.
Ní éistfidh Caoimhe leis an raidió. - Caoimhe won't listen to the radio.
Last edited by Elaine on 2014-07-26, 12:51, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-26, 0:55

Caitlín wrote:bhfuair mo bhean bás. - My wife didn't die.
bhfuair m'fhear bás. - My husband didn't die.
Tá mé ag éisteacht leis an t-amhrán seo. - I'm listening to this song.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-27, 13:38

Thank you!

I'll try to remember those:
http://www.daltai.com/grammar/irregular-verbs/

As far as I know, there are only 11 irregular verbs in Irish.

An - Ní
(be) - an raibh tú? - bhí mé - ní raibh mé
feic (see) - an bhfaca tú? - chonaic mé - ní fhaca mé
téigh (go) - an ndeachaigh tú? - chuaigh mé - ní dheachaigh mé
déan (do) - an ndearna tú? - rinne mé - ní dhearna mé
faigh (get) - an bhfuair tú? - fuair mé - ní bhfuair mé
abair (say) - an ndúirt tú? - dúirt mé - ní dúirt mé

Ar - Níor
tar (come) - ar thainig tú? - tháinig mé - níor tháinig mé
ith (eat) - ar ith tú? - d'ith mé - níor ith mé
tabhair (give/bring) - ar thug tú? - thug mé - níor thug mé
beir ... ar (catch) - ar rug tú? - rug mé - níor rug mé
clois (hear) - ar chuala tú? - chuala mé - níor chuala mé

Question: Is níor used to negate the past tenses of all regular verbs?
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-27, 14:20

Caitlín wrote:As far as I know, there are only 11 irregular verbs in Irish.

That depends on how you count the "defective verbs", which only have a limited number of forms. Chief among these is feadair "know/knew", e.g. Ní fheadar/N'fheadar "I don't/didn't know", which is only common in Munster. Others include ar(sa) "quoth, said", tharla "it happened", and dóbair (ba dhóbair, hóbair) "it nearly happened". The last two are impersonal (e.g. Tharla go raibh sí ann "She happened to be there").

Caitlín wrote:Question: Is níor used to negate the past tenses of all regular verbs?

I can't think of any exceptions.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-27, 15:16

Thanks for informing me about this. I couldn't come until this level without you.

Bhí a fhios agam seo. - I knew this.
Ní dheachaigh mé ar scoil. - I didn't go to school.
Níl tú i do aonar, a Shíle! - You're not alone, Síle!
Tá Úna sa chistin. - Úna's in the kitchen.
Ar mhaith leat canna cóla a ól? - Do you want to drink a can of cola?
Cad a ghlaonn tú air i Meiriceá? - What do you call it in America?
Cén áit a ndeachaigh tú? - Where did you go?
Conas a fhoghlaim tú Gaeilge? - How did you learn Irish?
Cé tú féin? - Who are you?
Cén fáth a fhoghlaim tú Gréigis? - Why did you learn Greek?
Is teanga álainn í an Ghaeilge. - Irish is a beautiful language.
Ólaim caife Turcach. - I drink Turkish coffee.
Tá Caoimhe ag ithe iógairt Turcach. - Caoimhe is eating Turkish yoghurt.
Cén fáth a bhfuil mé sa tír seo? - Why am I in this country?
Tá mé ag éisteacht leis an gceol. - I'm listening to music.

Edit: I think I need to use "ndeachaigh" if I ask someone where they go.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-27, 16:25

Caitlín wrote:Thanks for informing me about this. I couldn't come untilreach this level without you.

Bhí a fhios agam é seo. - I knew this.
Níl tú i d'aonar, a Shíle! - You're not alone, Síle!
Cad a ghlaonn tú air i Meiriceá? - What do you call it in America?

Béarlachas. In Traditional Irish, glaoigh ar means "call for" or "summon", e.g. Ghlaoigh mé ar channa cóla. "I called for a can of cola." I would say "Cad a thugann tú air?"

[BTW, if you don't want me to point out Anglicisms when they're widely used by non-native speakers and not considered "wrong", just let me know. As I say above, I don't know what your goals are in learning the language.]

Caitlín wrote:Cén áit a chuaigh tú? - Where did you go?
Conas a fhoghlaim tú Gaeilge? - How did you learn Irish?

Conas is very Munster, but in Munster "Where?" is cá?. People who say cén áit? for "where?" tend to say cén chaoi? [pronounced céachaoi?] for "how". Minor point, though; you'll be understood either way.

Caitlín wrote:Tá mé ag éisteacht leis an gceol. - I'm listening to the music.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-27, 17:24

linguoboy wrote:
Caitlín wrote:Thanks for informing me about this. I couldn't come untilreach this level without you.

Bhí a fhios agam é seo. - I knew this.
Níl tú i d'aonar, a Shíle! - You're not alone, Síle!
Cad a ghlaonn tú air i Meiriceá? - What do you call it in America?

Béarlachas. In Traditional Irish, glaoigh ar means "call for" or "summon", e.g. Ghlaoigh mé ar channa cóla. "I called for a can of cola." I would say "Cad a thugann tú air?"

[BTW, if you don't want me to point out Anglicisms when they're widely used by non-native speakers and not considered "wrong", just let me know. As I say above, I don't know what your goals are in learning the language.]


Either way, I don't think "glaoigh ar" is actually used by many non-natives anyway (or at least I've never heard it), "tabhair ar" is still the norm for L2 speakers AFAIK and I think most of us would find "glaoigh ar" strange. If someone said "Cad a ghlaonn tú air i Meiriceá?" I'd probably think they were trying to say "How do you call America?" (as in, what is the international dialling code for the US).


linguoboy wrote:
Caitlín wrote:Cén áit a chuaigh tú? - Where did you go?
Conas a fhoghlaim tú Gaeilge? - How did you learn Irish?

Conas is very Munster, but in Munster "Where?" is cá?. People who say cén áit? for "where?" tend to say cén chaoi? [pronounced céachaoi?] for "how". Minor point, though; you'll be understood either way.


"Conas" is favoured by L2 speakers (in Dublin, at least) as well.
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-27, 17:42

You can point out Anglicisms. The only thing I want is not to be taught wrong. ;)
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-27, 17:53

Caitlín wrote:You can point out Anglicisms. The only thing I want is not to be taught wrong. ;)


The problem is in deciding what is and isn't "wrong". There are three major traditional dialects that differ considerably, one might say it is "wrong" to mix them, others wouldn't. There is also a Standard form which some people considered entirely "wrong", and then there's how most people actually use the language, most of whom are L2 speakers, and they say things which many other people say are wrong, but there are more people who talk like that than there are people who don't, so from a certain perspective they're not wrong at all. You should define what you are aiming for specifically, that way we'll know how best to help you.
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-27, 17:56

I'm aiming for Standard Irish.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-27, 18:09

Okay. Even so, there's a sliding scale of Anglicism in Irish with the most traditional dialects being the least Anglicised (though there are occasions when some Gaeltacht Irish has Anglicisms that Galltacht Irish doesn't) and some L2 speakers being the most Anglicised. It's kind of hard to tell where to draw the line, but I suppose sticking to Standard Irish would probably mean "Don't correct something if it is technically okay, even if there are more Gaelic idioms used in the trad. dialects, do correct it if it is only found in L2 speech, is an influence from English and is not officially part of the Standard".
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-27, 19:51

Okay. Now I'm writing some sentences.

Tá mé ag déanamh staidéar in ollscoil. - I'm studying at university.
Foghlaimíonn tú Tuircis. - You learn Turkish.
Tá dhá oráiste sa bhosca. - There are two oranges in the box.
Tá Caoimhe sé bhliana déag d'aois. - Caoimhe is sixteen years old.
Ceannóidh mé roinnt leabhar ó Amazon. - I'll buy some books from Amazon.
Ní teanga éasca í an Tuircis. - Turkish is not an easy language.
Níl ailt éiginnte sa Ghaeilge. - There are no indefinite articles in Irish.
Tá dhá bhó sa tsráidbhaile. - There are two cows in the village.
Tá an bóthar cam. - The road is crooked.
Cá bhfuil Sinéad? - Where is Sinéad?
Tá an sagart san eaglais. - The priest is in the church.
Tá an cócaire ag cócaireacht feola. - The cook is cooking meat.
Blagálaim go leanúnach. - I blog continuously.
Chuaigh mo dheartháir go dtí an tSeapáin. - My brother went to Japan.
Tá Seapáinis ag do dheirfiúr? - Does your sister speak Japanese?
Níl an t-ábhar seo ar fáil i do thír. - This content is not available in your country.
Cén fáth a dhéanaim botúin amaideacha i gcónaí? - Why do I always make silly mistakes?

And what is the difference between ag and á?
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-27, 20:36

Caitlín wrote:Tá mé ag déanamh staidéir in ollscoil. - I'm studying at university.
Tá Caoimhe sé bhliana déag d'aois. - Caoimhe is sixteen years old.
Níl aon ailt éiginnte sa Ghaeilge. - There are no indefinite articles in Irish.

Caitlín wrote:And what is the difference between ag and á?

Á is a contraction of ag with the third-person possessive a. It is used when the verb-noun takes a third-person object:

Táim ag léamh leabhair. "I'm reading a book."
Táim á léamh. "I'm reading it."
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


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