Elaine - Gaeilge

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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2015-03-08, 17:23

Well, for one thing "ceapaire" is fronted in the second version, so I would feel like there is more emphasis on it as the focus of the sentence. But you can achieve the same thing with the copula by phrasing it as "Ceapaire is ea é".

My impression is that the "bí + i" structure (that is the "atá ann" here), is more of a Munster thing in general. I think you generally find it used less often than the copular structure in mainstream media. Also, sometimes it can be ambiguous - "Tá leabhar ann" can mean "It is a book" or "There is a book".
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-08, 19:41

Aisling wrote:What are the differences between "Is ceapaire é." and "Ceapaire atá ann."?
I wanted to meansay "It is a sandwich."
In that case, I would use the version with the copula. (And since Ciarán mentioned Munster, I feel compelled to point out that it's more common there to say "Ceapaire is ea é.")

Aisling wrote:And how is the "atá ann" structure used in which situations?
Actually, I think Ciarán is mistaken about this being more common in Munster. According to Ó Siadhail, it's in Ulster that BÍ + i largely replaces copula constructions for expressing identity. In Munster and in the Standard, there's a contrast with BÍ + i being used for less permanent states of affairs. E.g.:

Is dlíodóir í [Or: Dlíodóir is ea í.] "She's a lawyer."
Tá sí ina dlíodóir. "She's a lawyer."

I almost feel like there's an implicit "now" in the second sentence. The first is the most neutral sort of statement. What does she do? Oh, she's a lawyer. The second would be used to bring attention to a change of affairs. Is she still at university? Oh no, she's a lawyer now.

Moreover, since there is no longer a future form of the copula in contemporary Irish (Classical Literary Irish budh), the only way to express future time with a predicate noun is with the BÍ + i construction:

Nuair a thiocfaidh sí ar ais, beidh sí ina dlíodóir. "When she comes back, she will be a lawyer."
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2015-03-08, 20:11

It never occurred to me to think of "tá sé/sí ina [noun]" as the same structure as " [noun] ann/inti". Don't they have different applications? It would seem okay to me to use the former when the subject is a person, e.g. Agus a bhí mé i mo pháiste... - "when/while I was a child", Tá a dheartháir ina mhac léinn - "His brother is a student", Táim i mo bhall sa Chonradh - "I am a member of the Conradh", but not Tá sé ina theilifís (but you could say "Tá teilifís ann").
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-08, 21:54

To me, Tá teilifís ann is a simple existential: "There's a television". Teilifís atá ann would be an emphatic version of this (which is a bit strange, since existentials are generally presentational) whereas teilifís atá inti is classificational, the equivalent of Is teilifís Í. This is a construction that doesn't really exist in Munster but is the norm in Ulster. (Although Munster does use a negative version, e.g. níl inti ach teilifís "it's only a television".)

Obviously, the dynamic interpretation makes more sense with animate subjects, since they are capable of changing their identification, but that doesn't mean I can't imagine situations where tá sí ina teilifís wouldn't be sensible to say. Imagine someone demonstrating how a wireless device can be used to play streaming video from a site like Hulu. "It's a television!" (I.e. now it's acting like one, but that isn't its permanent nature.) Or imagine an animation of something morphing from one shape to another or someone miming various objects. "She's a television!" (She's still a performer, but she's acting like a television at the moment.) And so forth.
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2015-03-08, 22:42

linguoboy wrote:To me, Tá teilifís ann is a simple existential: "There's a television". Teilifís atá ann would be an emphatic version of this (which is a bit strange, since existentials are generally presentational) whereas teilifís atá inti is classificational, the equivalent of Is teilifís Í. This is a construction that doesn't really exist in Munster but is the norm in Ulster. (Although Munster does use a negative version, e.g. níl inti ach teilifís "it's only a television".)


Okay, but as Teilifís atá ann and teilifís atá inti only differ in the grammatical gender of the form of i here, what would you make of it if a masculine noun were used? Say, Buidéal atá ann for example?

linguoboy wrote:Obviously, the dynamic interpretation makes more sense with animate subjects, since they are capable of changing their identification, but that doesn't mean I can't imagine situations where tá sí ina teilifís wouldn't be sensible to say. Imagine someone demonstrating how a wireless device can be used to play streaming video from a site like Hulu. "It's a television!" (I.e. now it's acting like one, but that isn't its permanent nature.) Or imagine an animation of something morphing from one shape to another or someone miming various objects. "She's a television!" (She's still a performer, but she's acting like a television at the moment.) And so forth.


I didn't mean that there were no possible situations in which the structure with ina couldn't be used, but I would always assume it refers to a human - "Tá sí ina teilifís" would not mean "It is a television", but "She is (being) a television". If you pointed at a television and said "Tá sí ina teilifís" I would find that weird (and not because, as you said, it implies a temporary state, but rather because you're not talking about a person).

Perhaps I've simply picked up the wrong impression of its use due to that particular usage being rarely applicable to non-humans.
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-08, 23:12

Ciarán12 wrote:Okay, but as Teilifís atá ann and teilifís atá inti only differ in the grammatical gender of the form of i here, what would you make of it if a masculine noun were used? Say, Buidéal atá ann for example?
It would depend on the context and the speaker. If they spoke an Ulster dialect, I'd assume it was classificatory. If they were Munster, I might wonder if I was missing part of the sentence.

Ciarán12 wrote:Perhaps I've simply picked up the wrong impression of its use due to that particular usage being rarely applicable to non-humans.
Or perhaps it's me who's formed the wrong impression. If I find any examples in the wild of the dynamic meaning being applied to non-humans, I'll share them here.
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2015-03-14, 18:30

Táim ag scríobh níos mó abairtí. Beidh na habairtí seo níos casta.

Tá airgead ag teastáil uaim. - I need money.
Tá níos mó airgid ag teastáil uaim chun teach nua a cheannach. - I need more money to buy a new house.
Táim ag déanamh iarracht ar mo chuid Gaeilge a fheabhsú. - I'm trying to improve my Irish.
Is Gaeilgeoir í Eimear, ach is féidir léi Béarla líofa a labhairt freisin. - Eimear is an Irish speaker, but she can speak English fluently as well.
Ar fhéach tú ar léarscáil an domhain riamh? - Have you ever looked to the world map?
Déanaim iarracht gan botúin a dhéanamh. - I try not to make mistakes.
Tá Eimear do mo ghlanadh. - Eimear is cleaning me.
Mura ndéanann tú staidéar go crua, teipfidh an scrúdú ort. - Unless you study hard, you will fail the exam.
D'ith sí an t-úll atá sa bhosca. - She ate the apple, which is in the box.
Ghabh sé an cat a bhí ag rith go dtí an scoil. - He caught the cat which was running to the school.
Táim ag déanamh an obair atá riachtanach. - I'm doing the work, which is necessary.
D'inis sé é domsa. - He told it to me.
Tá orm dul ar scoil anois, mar sin is féidir liom teacht abhaile déanach. - I have to go to school now, so I may come home late.
D'fhág mé mo bhróga dhearga sa halla. - I left my red shoes in the hall.

And a question:
How can we translate the suffix "-sa/-se" like in "agamsa", "agatsa", "domsa", "uirthise"?
And what meaning do these suffixes give to the sentence? What is the difference between "agam" and "agamsa" (or "liom" and "liomsa")?
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-14, 19:01

Aisling wrote:Tá airgead ag teastáil uaim. - I need money.
Tá níos mó airgid ag teastáil uaim chun teach nua a cheannach. - I need more money to buy a new house.
NB: "ag teastáil" is optional in these sentences. E.g. Tá airgead uaim. - "I need money."

Aisling wrote:Táim ag déanamh iarrachta ar mo chuid Gaeilge a fheabhsú. - I'm trying to improve my Irish.
Ar fhéach tú ar léarscáil an domhain riamh? - Have you ever looked at the world map?
D'inis sé é domsa é. - He told it to me.
D'fhág mé mo bhróga dhearga sa halla. - I left my red shoes in the hall.

And a question:
How can we translate the suffix "-sa/-se" like in "agamsa", "agatsa", "domsa", "uirthise"?
And what meaning do these suffixes give to the sentence? What is the difference between "agam" and "agamsa" (or "liom" and "liomsa")?
These are emphatic forms. They are best translated by stressing the pronoun (shown in writing either with italics or boldface), e.g.:

D'inis sé domsa é. "He told it to me."

Often the usage is contrastive (i.e. "He told it to me, not to you or someone else.") Note also that these forms are only used with animate referents. That is, if you wanted to emphasise the direct object in this sentence rather than the indirect, it would have to be D'inis sé domsa é sin., not *D'inis sé domsa eisean because "it" here is something abstract. (Cf. Eng. "He told me that.")
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2015-03-20, 8:53

Go raibh míle maith agat arís, a linguoboy! :) Ar chóir dom níos mó abairtí a scríobh? Ba ea!

An innealtóirí sinn? - Are we engineers?
Fuair an t-eolaí pláinéad nua amach. - The scientist discovered a new planet.
Úsáidim Spotify chun éisteacht le ceol. - I use Spotify to listen to music.
An gceapann tú a bhfuilimid go han-mhaith ag snámh? - Do you think that we are very good at swimming?
D'íoslódáil mé an t-amhrán nua. - I downloaded the new song.
Ní cheapaim gur féidir leat é a dhéanamh. - I don't think you can do it.
Tá Holly ina cónaí i Sasana. - Holly lives in England.
Cá bhfuil an teach inár rugadh mé? - Where is the house which I was born in? : (What is "inár" used in this sentence for?)
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-20, 14:51

Aisling wrote:Tháinig an t-eolaí ar phláinéad nua amach. - The scientist discovered a new planet.
An gceapann tú go bhfuilimid go han-mhaith ag snámh? - Do you think that we are very good at swimming?
Ag + VN usual acts as a gerundive, so I would translate this as "Do you think we are very good swimming?" (i.e. while swimming), which isn't quite the same thing. I think it would be understood perfectly well, but it sounds Englishy to me. More native idioms would be: ...go bhfuil snámh an-mhaith againn or gur an-mhaith ár snámh

Aisling wrote:Cá bhfuil an teach inar rugadh mé? - Where is the house which I was born in? : (What is "inar" used in this sentence for?)
It's the relative particle, "in which". There are two ways to construct so-called indirect relative clauses involving a preposition: with a preposition at the end or at the beginning. The former is more common nowadays:

Cá bhfuil an teach ar rugadh mé ann?

This version requires a resumptive pronoun. That is, literally, it reads "...the house which I was born in it."

In the version with the preposition first, this combines with the relative particle a(r). This version is of more limited use; it isn't possible with all prepositions and can't be used in the negative, e.g.:

Taispeáin an teach leanna dom nach raibh sé ann. "Show me the ale house he hasn't been in." (*An teach leanna dom inach raibh sé isn't possible to say.)
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2015-03-24, 15:07

Thank you again, linguoboy!

How would you translate "What has been seen cannot be unseen" into Irish? I've tried to translate it. The translation below is my own attempt:

Ní féidir le aon rud a chonacthas a bheith dofheicthe.

Feel free to correct my translation.
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-24, 15:11

Aisling wrote:How would you translate "What has been seen cannot be unseen" into Irish? I've tried to translate it. The translation below is my own attempt:

Ní féidir le haon rud a chonacthas a bheith dofheicthe.
I don't think this works since dofheicthe means "unseen" in the sense of "invisible". "Unsee" is really a derived verb meaning "to forget having seen something" and I can't think of an equivalent in Irish.
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2015-03-24, 15:20

linguoboy wrote:
Aisling wrote:How would you translate "What has been seen cannot be unseen" into Irish? I've tried to translate it. The translation below is my own attempt:

Ní féidir le haon rud a chonacthas a bheith dofheicthe.
I don't think this works since dofheicthe means "unseen" in the sense of "invisible". "Unsee" is really a derived verb meaning "to forget having seen something" and I can't think of an equivalent in Irish.


Thank you for the explanations! The translation below is my second attempt for the same sentence: (I have used dearmad a dhéanamh now)

"Ní féidir le haon rud a chonacthas dearmad a bheith déanta."

:)
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-24, 15:41

Aisling wrote:"Ní féidir le haon rud a chonacthas dearmad a bheith déanta."
The expression is dearmad a déanamh ar rud. And using the perfect here is very awkward.

Maybe: Sin a bhfaca tú, ní féidir leat a bheith gan a fheiscint. (Lit. "That which you saw, it's not possible for you to be without seeing it.") I still feel like there should be a more elegant way of expressing this.
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2015-05-15, 15:45

I tried to translate some sentence into Irish (which is still my main focus). Could you point out the mistakes, please?

Nuair a théimid a chodladh ar an oíche, níl aon ráthaíocht ann go músclóimid ar maidin. Ach socraímid an t-aláram go fóill chun muid a dhúiseacht. Dóchas a ghlaoitear air.

The original English one: "When we go to sleep at night, there's no guarantee that we'll wake up in the morning. But we still set the alarm to wake us up. This is called hope."
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2015-05-15, 15:56

Aisling wrote:Nuair a théimid a chodladh ar an oíche, níl aon ráthaíocht ann go músclóimid ar maidin. Ach socraímid an t-aláram go fóill chun muid a dhúiseacht. Dóchas a ghlaoitear air.

Nílim ag feiscint aon bhotúin. Maith an bhean thú!
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2015-05-15, 16:07

linguoboy wrote:
Aisling wrote:Nuair a théimid a chodladh ar an oíche, níl aon ráthaíocht ann go músclóimid ar maidin. Ach socraímid an t-aláram go fóill chun muid a dhúiseacht. Dóchas a ghlaoitear air.

Nílim ag feiscint aon bhotúin. Maith an bhean thú!


Táim an-sásta nach bhfuil aon botún i m'aistriúchán agus go raibh míle maith agat!
I'm very happy that there aren't any mistakes in my translation and thank you very much!

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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2015-05-15, 16:32

Aisling wrote:Is ainm baineann é m'ainm úsáideora, ach is buachaill mé.

Ba cheann mná gach uile ainm úsáideora leat, agus gach uile pictiúr úsáideora chomh maith. An bhféadfá a rá liom cad'na thaobh?
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2015-05-20, 10:25

Let's have some craic!

Is scríbhneoir í an cailín Éireannach atá ag scríobh as Gaeilge.
The Irish girl, who is writing in Irish, is a writer.

Tá cailín Éireannach ag scríobh litreach as Gaeilge.
An Irish girl is writing a letter in Irish.

More coming soon after I return from school :)
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Re: Aisling - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2015-06-07, 15:29

I returned back again! D'fhill mé ar ais arís!

Táim dubh dóite sna laethanta seo. - I am bored these days.
Is mian liom dul a chodladh i ndáiríre. - I really want to sleep.
Tá sí ag foghlaim Gréigise. - She is learning Greek.
An bhfaca tú ar an físeán seo riamh? - Have you ever seen this video?
An bhfuil Gaeilge agat i ndáiríre? - Do you really know Irish?
Táimid an-láidir anois. - We are very strong now.
Nílim ag déanamh staidéir ar fhisic anois, ach déanfaidh mé staidéar ar an ábhar sin ina dhiaidh sin. - I am not studying physics now, but I will study that subject later.
Tabharfaidh an freastalaí an biachlár dúinn. - The waiter will bring us the menu.
Ar mian leat sin a insint dom i ndáiríre? - Did you really want to tell that to me?
Is mairg nach bhfuil Gaeilge líofa agam. - I wish I spoke Irish fluently.
An bhfuil foclóir níos fearr agat? - Do you have a better dictionary?
Táim ag múineadh Tuircise de Melanie. - I'm teaching Turkish to Melanie.
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