Elaine - Gaeilge

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-28, 12:01

Thank you, linguoboy! Remember that writing sentences is a way to improve your grammar and vocabulary. So, I'm writing a bit more sentences:

Níor scrios mé an tvuít sin. - I didn't delete that tweet.
Tá mé á tvuíteáil. - I'm tweeting it.
Tá foghlamtha agam rud éigin tábhachtach. - I have learnt something important.
Nuair a chuaigh mé isteach san ospidéal, bhí faighte bás ag an t-othar. - When I entered the hospital, the patient had died.
Ba amhránaí í. - She was a singer.
Bhí mé sna sléibhte. - I was in the mountains.
Tá siad i mo theach. - They are in my house.
Is Béarlachas é. - It's an Anglicism.
Tá Breatnais agam. - I speak Welsh.
Tá guth álainn ag an amhránaí seo. - This singer has a beautiful voice.
Cé ar mhaith leo foclóir a scríobh? - Who wants to write a dictionary?
Scríobhfaidh mé foclóir Tuircis-Gaeilge. - I'll write a Turkish-Irish dictionary.
Tá Tuircis líofa ag Caoimhe. - Caoimhe speaks Turkish fluently.
Tá Caoimhín ag obair i gcomhlacht Éireannach. - Caoimhín is working in an Irish company.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby kevin » 2014-07-28, 12:40

Caitlín wrote:Tá Caoimhín ag obair i gcomhlacht Éireannach. - Caoimhín is working in an Irish company.

Níl. Tá sé Meiriceánach. ;)

Edit: Hm, I guess, it should be Is Meiriceánach é even though it's an adjective?
Last edited by kevin on 2014-07-28, 14:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Declan » 2014-07-28, 14:00

Caitlín wrote:Tá foghlamtha agam rud éigin tábhachtach. - I have learnt something important.

Tá rud éigin tábhachtach foghlamtha agam (not used very often).
Ceartaigh mo chuid Ghaeilge má's mhian leat.
Corrections also welcome in German and French.
Go raibh míle maith agat.

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-28, 14:10

Caitlín wrote:Nuair a chuaigh mé isteach san ospidéal, bhí faighte bás faighte ag an t-othar. - When I entered the hospital, the patient had died.
B'amhránaí í. - She was a singer.
leis ar mhaith leo foclóir a scríobh? - Who wants to write a dictionary?
Tá guth álainn ag an amhránaí seo. - This singer has a beautiful voice.

More idiomatic: Is álainn an guth ag an amhránaí seo.

Declan wrote:
Caitlín wrote:Tá foghlamtha agam rud éigin tábhachtach. - I have learnt something important.

Tá rud éigin tábhachtach foghlamtha agam (not used very often).

Yeah, IME L2 speakers (particularly when their native language is English) tend to greatly overuse this construction. Its usage is much more limited than the English perfect, as it implies something has only just happened. In fact, I tend to mentally add "just" when translating it into English. It's most natural in the present tense, so your example sentence with bás faighte sounds particularly awkward to me (though not technically incorrect and something you'd here from L2 speakers).

Regardless, keep in mind that the logical object is grammatically the subject and it shouldn't be hard to remember that it comes immediately after the finite verb. The participle is really a verbal adjective, so naturally it comes next, and then the logical subject appears as a prepositional object, which generally come last in a clause. Compare: Tá na rudaí sin tabhachtach dom. "Those things are important to me." The word order is exactly the same even though in this case the logical subject and the grammatical subject coincide.
Last edited by linguoboy on 2014-07-28, 14:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-28, 14:14

So can I use "Tá guth álainn ag an amhránaí seo." too? ;)
And thank you!

And which is more accurate?
Tá rud éigin tábhachtach foghlamtha agam.
or
Tá foghlamtha agam rud éigin tábhachtach.
?
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-28, 14:57

Caitlín wrote:And which is more accurate?
Tá rud éigin tábhachtach foghlamtha agam.
or
Tá foghlamtha agam rud éigin tábhachtach.
?

Once again: rud éigin is the subject. Irish word order is VSO, meaning that the subject immediately follows the finite verb[*]. Regardless whether it's a verbal adjective or not, a predicate adjective follows the subject.

If you don't understand some of the terminology I'm using in my explanations, please ask and I can define it for you.

[*] Unless it's fronted, e.g. Is rud éigin tábhachtach atá foghlamtha agam. "It's something important which has just been learned by me".
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-28, 19:02

Thank you so much! ;)

Ba mhaith liom an comhad seo a íoslódáil. - I want to download this file.
Tá an t-aistriúchán meaisín an-dúr. - The machine translation is very stupid.
Cá háit ar féidir liom an comhad sin a íoslódáil? - Where can I download this file?
Tá súile gorma agam. - I have blue eyes.
Tá mé ag feiceáil rud éigin aisteach. - I'm seeing something strange.
Tá mé ag léamh an leabhair uaine. - I'm reading the green book.
Táimid ag obair i gcomhlacht eile. - We're working in another company.
Tá Béarla againn cheana féin. - We already speak English.
Tá mé ag fanacht le duine chun mo bhotúin a cheartú. - I'm waiting for someone to correct my mistakes.
Tá mo chuid Gaeilge go dona. - My Irish is bad.
Tá aon briathar dhéag neamhrialta sa Ghaeilge. - There are eleven irregular verbs in Irish.
Tá an Túr Eiffel sa Fhrainc. - The Eiffel Tower is in France.
Tá mé ag lorg poist maith. - I'm looking for a good job.
Tá mo uaireadóir an-daor. - My watch is very expensive.
Tá tuirse orm inniu. - I'm tired today.
Scríobh d'uimhir teileafóin anseo. - Write your phone number here.
Is mian liom a bhí tú anseo. - I wish you were here.
An ndeachaigh tú go hÉirinn? - Did you go to Ireland?
D'ith mé martbhorgaire ar McDonald's. - I ate a hamburger at McDonald's.
Ní féidir liom ach abairtí búnusacha a scríobh. - I can only write basic sentences.
Tá Saoirse ag féachaint orm. - Saoirse is looking at me.
Tá Caoimhe ag foghlaim Gréigis. - Caoimhe is learning Greek.

How can I say:
A is as (adj) as B.
A is more (adj) than B.
A is less (adj) than B.
?
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-28, 19:45

Caitlín wrote:Tá mé ag léamh an leabhair uaine. - I'm reading the green book.


In light of the rule that Daniel pointed out recently, I think this should be "leabhar" (nom.) as it has an attributive adjective associated with it.

Caitlín wrote:Tá aon briathar dhéag neamhrialta sa Ghaeilge. - There are eleven irregular verbs in Irish.


According to Wiktionary, "déag" only lenites after a noun ending in a consonant.

Caitlín wrote:Tá mé ag lorg poist maith. - I'm looking for a good job.


Same as with "leabhar" above.

Caitlín wrote:Tá m'uaireadóir an-daor. - My watch is very expensive.


Caitlín wrote:Is mian liom a bhí go raibh tú anseo. - I wish you were here.


Caitlín wrote:D'ith mé martbhorgaire ar McDonald's. - I ate a hamburger at McDonald's.


Dearfainnse "i McDonald's".

Caitlín wrote:Tá Caoimhe ag foghlaim (na) Gréigise. - Caoimhe is learning Greek.


Caitlín wrote:How can I say:
A is as (adj) as B.


Tá A chomh (adj.) le B.

Caitlín wrote:A is more (adj) than B.


Tá A níos (adj*) ná B.

* the adj. should be in the comparative form here.

Caitlín wrote:A is less (adj) than B.


I would just say "Níl A chomh (adj.) le B", but it seems there is also the posibility of nominalising the adjective and saying "Is lú (nom.adj,) A-genitive ná B" - as in this example taken from this dictionary: My business is of less urgency than his - is lú práinn mo ghnósa ná a ghnósin.
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby kevin » 2014-07-28, 20:07

Ciarán12 wrote:
Caitlín wrote:Tá mé ag léamh an leabhair uaine. - I'm reading the green book.

In light of the rule that Daniel pointed out recently, I think this should be "leabhar" (nom.) as it has an attributive adjective associated with it.

Wasn't that only for indefinite nouns? Here we have an leabhar.

Caitlín wrote:Tá mé ag lorg poist maith. - I'm looking for a good job.

Here it's indefinite indeed.

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-28, 20:16

kevin wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
Caitlín wrote:Tá mé ag léamh an leabhair uaine. - I'm reading the green book.

In light of the rule that Daniel pointed out recently, I think this should be "leabhar" (nom.) as it has an attributive adjective associated with it.

Wasn't that only for indefinite nouns? Here we have an leabhar.


Whoops, yes, it seems it was. God that's such a specific rule! Next I'll find out it's only when it's masculine noun which begins with a vowel and ends with a broad consonant, and only on Tuesdays, when the sun is partially covered in cloud and when the person you are speaking to is wearing a brown hat, and when the moon is in alighnment with the seven secret Gods of the Tuatha Dé Danann, only if the speaker is speaking into a westerly wind, and when the mother of the listener is wearing odds socks...
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby kevin » 2014-07-28, 20:19

Let's just pick another nice language to learn and give up on Irish? ;)

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-07-28, 20:20

kevin wrote:Let's just pick another nice language to learn and give up on Irish? ;)


I hear Indonesian is easy :wink:
Beidh Gaeilge líofa chruinn bhlasta agam nó go bhfaighe mé bás san iarracht!

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby Elaine » 2014-07-28, 20:29

kevin wrote:Let's just pick another nice language to learn and give up on Irish? ;)


I'm kind, don't worry, but I won't give up on Irish. I just love this language. If I give up on Irish, which language do I need to select?

Edit: I understood it was just a joke. I'm neither giving up on Irish nor Indonesian. ;) Good learning!
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2014-07-28, 20:33

Originally you simply put a noun into the genitive after the verbal noun, regardless of whether it was definite or indefinite.

Táim ag lorg fir. (indefinite, no further attribute)
Táim ag lorg fir mhaith. (indefinite, no further attribute)
Táim ag lorg an fhir mhaith. (definite)

However, the genitive has decreased in usage over the past century. Especially when the noun is followed by an attributive adjective. This applies equally in the definite and indefinite cases, but for some reason the Caighdeán (Standard Irish) rules on following the decline in the genitive only for indefinite nouns.

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-28, 20:35

Caitlín wrote:Tá an t-aistriúchán meaisín an-dúr. - The machine translation is very stupid.

A better translation for dúr is "thick". That is, it only really means "stupid" when applied to people. If what you mean is that the results are nonsensical, a better adjective is seafóideach.

Caitlín wrote:Tá mé ag léamh an leabhair uaine. - I'm reading the green book.

Glas is more common in contemporary Irish. Uaine specifically means an unnaturally vivid shade of green (which might fit here depending on how you visualise the appearance of the book).

Caitlín wrote:Tá mé ag fanacht le duine chun mo bhotúin a cheartú. - I'm waiting for someone to correct my mistakes.

Literally, this means that you are waiting for someone before you correct your mistakes. However, if what you intend to say is that you're waiting for that other person to correct them for you, then you need a subordinate clause, i.e. Tá mé ag fanacht go gceartódh duine mo bhotúin. (Or, with the impersonal, Tá mé ag fanacht go gceartófaí mo bhotúin.)

Caitlín wrote:Tá mo chuid Gaeilge go dona. - My Irish is bad.

Níl basctha di!

Caitlín wrote:Tá aon briathar dhéag neamhrialta i nGaeilge. - There are eleven irregular verbs in Irish.
Tá mé ag lorg poist maith. - I'm looking for a good job. [indefinite, further qualified = no genitive]
Tá m'uaireadóir an-daor. - My watch is very expensive.
Scríobh d'uimhir theileafóin anseo. - Write your phone number here.
Is mian liom a bhí tú anseo. - I wish you were here.

This last sentence makes no sense in Irish. Remember that a introduces not just any dependent clause but specifically a relative clause, e.g. Is mian liom (an rud) a bhí anseo "I desire that (the thing) which was here".

Idiomatic expressions for "I wish you were here" are Faraor nach bhfuil tú anseo ("Alas that you are not here" and Is trua gan tú anseo ("It's a pity without you here").

Caitlín wrote:D'ith mé martbhorgaire ar McDonald's. - I ate a hamburger at McDonald's.

Not sure where you found martbhorgaire. The word I'm familiar with is burgar--burgar mairteola if you must specify "beef". (But that's generally assumed.)

Caitlín wrote:Tá Caoimhe ag foghlaim Gréigise. - Caoimhe is learning Greek. [indefinite, not further specified = genitive]

Caitlín wrote:How can I say:
A is as (adj) as B.
A is more (adj) than B.
A is less (adj) than B.
?

Comparisons are a bit complicated in Irish as they involve copular clauses. (Literally, you say that A is a thing that is more (adj) than B.) You might want to hold off until you understand their usage a bit better. Also, comparative forms involve vowel mutation and the most common adjectives are irregular (e.g. mór "bit", nios mó "bigger; more"; beag "little, small", "smaller, less").

The equative is formed with chomh + ADJ + le, e.g. Táim chomh sásta leat. "I'm as happy as you". Or, if a full clause is involved, with agus, e.g. Táim chomh sásta agus a bhí tú. "I'm as happy as you were".
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2014-07-28, 20:37

Following on from my post above...

For example many native novels contain sentences like:

ag déanamh oibre sagairt = doing a priests work. (indefinite in genitive with adjective)

The real native rule is that the genitive tends not to be used in any scenario if there is an attributive adjective on the noun.

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-28, 20:43

An Lon Dubh wrote:ag déanamh oibre sagairt = doing a priests work. (indefinite in genitive with adjective)

Sagairt isn't an adjective, though, it's a noun in the genitive. I would've expected the functional genitive in this case (i.e. obair sagairt).
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2014-07-28, 20:51

linguoboy wrote:
An Lon Dubh wrote:ag déanamh oibre sagairt = doing a priests work. (indefinite in genitive with adjective)

Sagairt isn't an adjective, though, it's a noun in the genitive. I would've expected the functional genitive in this case (i.e. obair sagairt).


Another good example is:
ag baint mhóna duibhe

The example in the previous post is from Peadar Ua Laoghaire.

A noun in the genitive in such cases functions identically to an adjective doesn't it, i.e. they obey all the same rules regarding lenition, eclipses, e.t.c. and causing the genitive to be dropped.

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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-28, 21:11

An Lon Dubh wrote:A noun in the genitive in such cases functions identically to an adjective doesn't it, i.e. they obey all the same rules regarding lenition, eclipses, e.t.c. and causing the genitive to be dropped.

Do they? Qualifying nouns can be definite whereas adjectives can't, e.g. obair bhean an tí (not *obair mná an tí, at least in the Standard) but i gcás mná pósta.
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Re: Caitlín - Gaeilge

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2014-07-28, 21:42

linguoboy wrote:Do they? Qualifying nouns can be definite whereas adjectives can't, e.g. obair bhean an tí (not *obair mná an tí, at least in the Standard) but i gcás mná pósta.

I would take obair bhean an tí to be "The housewife's work", where a genitive construction is taken as a proper noun, rather than a qualifying noun. Indefinite qualifying nouns can also have this distinction, e.g.

Bróg cailín = A girl's shoe.
Bróg chailín = A girly shoe.


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