Moderator:kevin
Luke wrote:I wouldn't have much to do with the Celtic languages today...
ciaran1212 wrote: For the most part, the Celtic languages are in similar situations of being weak, non-community languages for most people who learn them. So it's hard to immerse yourself the way you might do with a major language. Even here in Ireland I can't get the kind of language immersion I could for other languages. There's just nowhere I can go where I can live my life through Irish, where it's a necessity.
nì eile wrote:Luke wrote:I wouldn't have much to do with the Celtic languages today...
And yet you are commenting in the Celtic language forum.
nì eile wrote:We're the ones who don't want to settle for Anglicized Gaelic, but Gaelic like our grandparents and great-grandparents spoke. We're the ones who want books, music, films, TV, software, games and social media in Gaelic. Too many native speakers have made their peace with the English-speaking world and don't want to be bothered anymore.
nì eile wrote:This is a big part of the problem--these are community languages at their heart, and you have to appreciate them as such. It's one of the reasons why I've been so frustrated with Gaelic forums, because they tend to fail at cultivating a sense of community, which I think is possible over the internet. I just don't think Gaelic speakers know how to provide that "virtual" community, or they are simply not willing. But in truth, for Gaelic to survive, it needs all the learners it can get. The estimates for Gaelic learners who have reached fluency are depressingly low--barely over 1000 worldwide. And the number of kids being raised in Gaelic-speaking homes are continuing to fall.
nì eile wrote:I joke that when I started learning Gaelic, I never thought it would end up being this political. But if you commit to learning a minority language these days, you will end up dealing with language politics whether you like it or not. You'll have to deal with the cynics and nay-sayers who want it tell you it's not worth the effort. You'll have to deal with other learner and speaker who seem more interested inc complaining than finding solutions. And of course, you'll have to make your way through the learner process with the burden of a dominant language that is eroding your learning opportunities.
nì eile wrote:We're the ones making the biggest effort, against the greatest obstacles. We're the ones who don't want to settle for Anglicized Gaelic, but Gaelic like our grandparents and great-grandparents spoke. We're the ones who want books, music, films, TV, software, games and social media in Gaelic. Too many native speakers have made their peace with the English-speaking world and don't want to be bothered anymore. Or they are content to keep to their ever dwindling local communities.
nì eile wrote:That reminds me--I need to go over the Twitter and tweet in Gaelic a bit. Must be a Gaelic presence in the world. Keep hoping one day I'll get a tweet back--in Gaelic.
Luke wrote:I can't begin to imagine how Ciaran must feel, with his own language being wiped out by English. I've become sort of anti-English in this respect.
Luke wrote:I can't begin to imagine how Ciaran must feel, with his own language being wiped out by English. I've become sort of anti-English in this respect.
Luke wrote:It's just like you say: the population is going to go in the direction of the predominant language in education.
So I was just wondering, how do you guys use your Celtic languages?
And yet you are commenting in the Celtic language forum.
This is a big part of the problem--these are community languages at their heart, and you have to appreciate them as such. It's one of the reasons why I've been so frustrated with Gaelic forums, because they tend to fail at cultivating a sense of community, which I think is possible over the internet. I just don't think Gaelic speakers know how to provide that "virtual" community, or they are simply not willing.
We're the ones who don't want to settle for Anglicized Gaelic, but Gaelic like our grandparents and great-grandparents spoke.
Good thing that stubborn Celtic blood runs thick in my veins.
Luke wrote:Maybe I haven't been clear enough. I was merely describing my situation. I want to learn a Celtic language, probably Cornish.
Ciaran wrote:I have nothing against English people that realise the effect their country has had on these islands and feel the appropriate amount of shame.
YngNghymru wrote:Luke wrote:Maybe I haven't been clear enough. I was merely describing my situation. I want to learn a Celtic language, probably Cornish.
If you want actual speakers, it might be sensible to look elsewhere than a language which still as far as I am aware has no first-language speakers and only a tiny group of competent L2ers who are still, as I understand it, split into factions over questions of orthography (and maybe also grammar? I don't know how far the split goes).
Luke wrote:I disagree on the archaic variant part. It's not like we have 15 thriving Celtic languages and one can get massively influenced by another random language and it's just a curiosity: it's all that remains. If I want to learn one of these I want a purely Celtic thing, because I already study English.
YngNghymru wrote:Luke wrote:I disagree on the archaic variant part. It's not like we have 15 thriving Celtic languages and one can get massively influenced by another random language and it's just a curiosity: it's all that remains. If I want to learn one of these I want a purely Celtic thing, because I already study English.
The idea that a 'purely Celtic thing' exists is a little bit silly on its own, but putting pedantry a side for a minute and assuming you mean what I think you mean, I think you've missed my point. You're welcome, I suppose, to learn a version of Irish or Welsh (or whatever) which does not reflect at all how modern speakers use the language. But if people then go on to whine that 'native speakers don't speak the language properly' or that they get laughed at for speaking like a 90-year-old academic treatise, then I have no sympathy whatsoever. At the end of the day, it's their language, not yours.
YngNghymru wrote:The idea that a 'purely Celtic thing' exists is a little bit silly on its own, but putting pedantry a side for a minute and assuming you mean what I think you mean, I think you've missed my point. You're welcome, I suppose, to learn a version of Irish or Welsh (or whatever) which does not reflect at all how modern speakers use the language. But if people then go on to whine that 'native speakers don't speak the language properly' or that they get laughed at for speaking like a 90-year-old academic treatise, then I have no sympathy whatsoever. At the end of the day, it's their language, not yours.
YngNghymru wrote:How generous! And how exactly would you quantify the 'appropriate amount of shame'?
I believe YngNghymru was talking about certain people who learn a certain type of Irish (usually a dialect or other non-standard form), and then gloat it as "real Irish." You know, the dickish people who say such-and-such type of Irish is "true Irish" and everything else pales in comparison. And I think he means learners, not native speakers too.
Recognition more than shame. Shame is what I would assume any decent person would feel when told that their people destroyed the indigenous cultures of the islands the invaded. I don't mean that they have to feel an acute sense of personal shame, I just mean that they should feel some sort of shame when they think about 'the English' in a historical sense, if they have any attachment to the concept at all. Basically just so long as they don't think that they were always the 'good guys'.
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