pronunciation of a name

Moderator:kevin

YngNghymru
Posts:1537
Joined:2009-05-21, 10:08
Location:Wrexham (Wrecsam)
Country:GBUnited Kingdom (United Kingdom)
Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby YngNghymru » 2011-11-09, 13:16

We don't. This is the most activity this forum has had in months. :P
[flag]en[/flag] native| [flag]cy[/flag] mwy na chdi | [flag]fr[/flag] plus d'un petit peu| [flag]ar[/flag] ليتي استطعت

ég sef á sófanum!

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby linguoboy » 2011-11-09, 15:57

DelBoy wrote:I've never heard scanradh pronounced as scamhradh.... I suppose it's pronounced this way by the people who pronounce mná as mrá and cnoc as croc though.

If anything, it's the other way round: Munster has scamhradh for scanradh but cnuc for cnoc. But maybe Ulster has both? (My impression of Ulster pronunciation is that there's nothing too weird to be at home there.)

DelBoy wrote:(Should we move this to the Irish forum if we want to continue and leave the Welsh folk alone? I'm sure they have better things to be discussing than Irish orthography.)

I was about to make the very same suggestion.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Chekhov
Posts:3900
Joined:2011-07-13, 18:37
Real Name:Alex Karaś
Gender:male
Location:Toronto (加拿大,安大略,多倫多)
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby Chekhov » 2011-11-10, 3:25

No it doesn't, it looks like /'foːr/. Medial /v/ just isn't very stable in Irish.
You're not helping your case that Irish spelling is regular by telling me that sometimes consonants disappear for no reason and there's no way to tell when this happens. Comparing it to English isn't helping either.
I guess I'm not approaching it the same way. Assimilation of /n/ to /r/ is really common crosslinguistically, so I wasn't surprised to find that this is a minor rule in Irish and I don't have trouble remembering it.
No, I'm talking about how /a/ appear to become /au/ before /n/. Is that the rule?
Did what happen? I think the usual assumption is that /b/ lenited first to [β] and that [v] is a secondary development, if that's what you mean.
Nope. I'm asking if /ab/ ever became /aw/. I think I recall reading something about that in Spanish, but it was so long ago that I can't remember.
吾が舞へば、麗し女、酔ひにけり
吾が舞へば、照る月、響むなり

User avatar
JackFrost
Posts:16240
Joined:2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name:Jack Frost
Gender:male
Location:Montréal, Québec
Country:CACanada (Canada)

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby JackFrost » 2011-11-10, 3:44

Nope. I'm asking if /ab/ ever became /aw/. I think I recall reading something about that in Spanish, but it was so long ago that I can't remember.

I think you meant /v/ > /b/ and /β/. That's what happened in Spanish and most Catalan dialects. I don't think it went to become /w/ though.
Neferuj paħujkij!

User avatar
Chekhov
Posts:3900
Joined:2011-07-13, 18:37
Real Name:Alex Karaś
Gender:male
Location:Toronto (加拿大,安大略,多倫多)
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby Chekhov » 2011-11-10, 4:03

Nope, I meant what I meant. I know that Latin /b/ became /v/ in some cases, and reverted to /b/ in Spanish. I also know that /w/ became /v/ in others. What I'm asking for are examples of /v/ turning into /w/, because Linguoboy claims this is a common change, but I can't think of a single example of it myself.
吾が舞へば、麗し女、酔ひにけり
吾が舞へば、照る月、響むなり

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby linguoboy » 2011-11-10, 4:36

Chekhov wrote:
No it doesn't, it looks like /'foːr/. Medial /v/ just isn't very stable in Irish.
You're not helping your case that Irish spelling is regular by telling me that sometimes consonants disappear for no reason and there's no way to tell when this happens. Comparing it to English isn't helping either.

That's not at all what I said. The rules are pretty clear for Munster dialect: medial /v/ disappears except when followed by a long vowel or diphthong. So díobháil is /dʲiː'vaːlʲ/ but diabhal is /'dʲiːəl/. But I don't know exactly what the case in other dialects, so I have to qualify my generalisations a bit.

This touches on one of the primary issues with Irish orthography: It's pandialectal. You can look at that as a bug (in that you have to apply some phonological adjustments to get from the underlying forms suggested by the standard spelling to surface forms in any particular variety) or you can look at it as a feature (because by applying some phonological adjustments you can get from the underlying forms suggested by the standard spelling to surface forms in a particular variety). I see it as a feature and it annoys me when standardisers choose "simplified" forms that break this relationship (like inniu "today", which suggests */'iŋʲu/ for Munster when the proper form is */i'nʲuv/).

If you're serious about learning Irish, you should get Ó Siadhail's Modern Irish. He clearly demonstrates how to derive surface forms in each (sub)dialect from common underlying forms.

Chekhov wrote:No, I'm talking about how /a/ appear to become /au/ before /n/. Is that the rule?

It is in some dialects but not in others. Earlier forms of Irish had a systematic contrast between fortis and lenis sonorants. No dialect maintains all the distinctions but they vary significantly in how they've merged them. In Muskerry Irish (the Munster dialect I've learned), the only remaining contrast is between lenis and fortis /nʲ/ in non-initial position. (Fortis /nʲ/ is realised as [ŋʲ], e.g. Gaelainn /'geːləŋʲ/.)

But what has happened in Munster and elsewhere is that these contrasts have been transferred to the vowels. Broad or slender /n/ is fortis before other consonants and causes diphthongisation of the vowel before it. So for scanradh /skanraɣ/ the development is:

Fortition: /skaNraɣ/
Diphthongisation: /skauNraɣ/
Assimilation: /skauraɣ/
Deletion of broad /ɣ/: /skaura/
Stress assignment: /'skaura/

Speaking of dialects, btw, I can't figure out which one it is you're trying to learn. Besides my Munster materials, I have Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish, which teaches his native Cois Fhairrge, a Connemara dialect. He does give /'fuːwər/ for fómhar but has /'skɑːNṭruː/ for scanradh (and /'kruk/ for cnoc, DelBoy).

Chekhov wrote:I'm asking if /ab/ ever became /aw/. I think I recall reading something about that in Spanish, but it was so long ago that I can't remember.

I can't think of any examples in Spanish, but it's common enough in Catalan, e.g. LABORARE > llaurar, PARABOLA > paraula, etc.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
JackFrost
Posts:16240
Joined:2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name:Jack Frost
Gender:male
Location:Montréal, Québec
Country:CACanada (Canada)

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby JackFrost » 2011-11-10, 4:42

Chekhov wrote:Nope, I meant what I meant. I know that Latin /b/ became /v/ in some cases, and reverted to /b/ in Spanish. I also know that /w/ became /v/ in others. What I'm asking for are examples of /v/ turning into /w/, because Linguoboy claims this is a common change, but I can't think of a single example of it myself.

Alright, I didn't realize you wanted to find examples going beyond the modern period. My bad.
Neferuj paħujkij!

User avatar
Chekhov
Posts:3900
Joined:2011-07-13, 18:37
Real Name:Alex Karaś
Gender:male
Location:Toronto (加拿大,安大略,多倫多)
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby Chekhov » 2011-11-10, 6:02

linguoboy wrote:This touches on one of the primary issues with Irish orthography: It's pandialectal. You can look at that as a bug (in that you have to apply some phonological adjustments to get from the underlying forms suggested by the standard spelling to surface forms in any particular variety) or you can look at it as a feature (because by applying some phonological adjustments you can get from the underlying forms suggested by the standard spelling to surface forms in a particular variety).
When you put it that way, I understand better why the spelling continues to be used, but that doesn't stop me from finding it counterintuitive and baffling. You'll have to excuse me here; you've been learning Irish since I was a wee bairn. I just started figuring out how to read it recently.
Speaking of dialects, btw, I can't figure out which one it is you're trying to learn.
Who said I was trying to learn anything? I'm just curious about how it works. (If I were to learn any Celtic language, it'd be Scottish Gaelic or Welsh anyway.)
吾が舞へば、麗し女、酔ひにけり
吾が舞へば、照る月、響むなり

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby linguoboy » 2011-11-10, 14:22

Chekhov wrote:
Speaking of dialects, btw, I can't figure out which one it is you're trying to learn.
Who said I was trying to learn anything? I'm just curious about how it works. (If I were to learn any Celtic language, it'd be Scottish Gaelic or Welsh anyway.)

In that case, you're a glutton for punishment. Irish has been through a recent spelling reform, the primary goal of which was to eliminate silent letters. Scottish-Gaelic still uses the traditional orthography--and has more vowel phonemes.

I'm still curious what source(s) you're drawing your examples from that are mixing pronunciations from different dialects so indiscriminately. No wonder it's baffling! Even Spanish would be if you mixed up pronunciations from all over the peninsula.

I think the distinction between deep and shallow orthographies is useful here. The orthography of Irish is pretty deep, but still overwhelmingly regular--comparable to French, in my opinion.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Chekhov
Posts:3900
Joined:2011-07-13, 18:37
Real Name:Alex Karaś
Gender:male
Location:Toronto (加拿大,安大略,多倫多)
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby Chekhov » 2011-11-11, 19:03

linguoboy wrote:In that case, you're a glutton for punishment. Irish has been through a recent spelling reform, the primary goal of which was to eliminate silent letters. Scottish-Gaelic still uses the traditional orthography--and has more vowel phonemes.
But isn't Scottish more regular?
I'm still curious what source(s) you're drawing your examples from that are mixing pronunciations from different dialects so indiscriminately. No wonder it's baffling! Even Spanish would be if you mixed up pronunciations from all over the peninsula.
From Wikipedia mostly, but the plethora of dialects is the problem to me. I have no idea which one I'd pick. (I'm not even sure where my ancestors came from, so that doesn't help.)
I think the distinction between deep and shallow orthographies is useful here. The orthography of Irish is pretty deep, but still overwhelmingly regular--comparable to French, in my opinion.
IME, French isn't terribly irregular. At least, it's better than Japanese.
吾が舞へば、麗し女、酔ひにけり
吾が舞へば、照る月、響むなり

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby linguoboy » 2011-11-11, 19:08

Chekhov wrote:
linguoboy wrote:In that case, you're a glutton for punishment. Irish has been through a recent spelling reform, the primary goal of which was to eliminate silent letters. Scottish-Gaelic still uses the traditional orthography--and has more vowel phonemes.
But isn't Scottish more regular?

Not as far as I can tell, but I admit I haven't studied it in great detail.

Chekhov wrote:
I think the distinction between deep and shallow orthographies is useful here. The orthography of Irish is pretty deep, but still overwhelmingly regular--comparable to French, in my opinion.
IME, French isn't terribly irregular. At least, it's better than Japanese.

My point exactly: Both French and Irish have multiple ways of writing the same sound and lots of "silent letters", but it's pretty regular going from written form to spoken.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby linguoboy » 2011-11-11, 19:28

Chekhov wrote:From Wikipedia mostly, but the plethora of dialects is the problem to me. I have no idea which one I'd pick. (I'm not even sure where my ancestors came from, so that doesn't help.)

That actually makes it easier, because then you can just go with what your materials teach. In general, the Connacht dialects are considered closest to the official standard (and have the most active speaker communities) and the Ulster dialects most distant. Most L2 speakers, however, speak something of a mishmash they learned in school.

As mentioned before, I chose a Munster dialect, West Muskerry, for active mastery, but most speakers I interact with speak Connacht or Ulster. Learning to understand them isn't any more difficult than learning to understand speakers of different dialects of any other language.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Chekhov
Posts:3900
Joined:2011-07-13, 18:37
Real Name:Alex Karaś
Gender:male
Location:Toronto (加拿大,安大略,多倫多)
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby Chekhov » 2011-11-11, 20:07

Holy ambiguous syntax, Batman!
linguoboy wrote:That actually makes it easier, because then you can just go with what your materials teach. In general, the Connacht dialects are considered closest to the official standard (and have the most active speaker communities) and the Ulster dialects most distant. Most L2 speakers, however, speak something of a mishmash they learned in school.

As mentioned before, I chose a Munster dialect, West Muskerry, for active mastery, but most speakers I interact with speak Connacht or Ulster. Learning to understand them isn't any more difficult than learning to understand speakers of different dialects of any other language.
Why'd you pick Munster? Do you have relatives there?
吾が舞へば、麗し女、酔ひにけり
吾が舞へば、照る月、響むなり

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby linguoboy » 2011-11-11, 20:43

Chekhov wrote:Why'd you pick Munster? Do you have relatives there?

I might. It was sort of a fortuitous coincidence. I acquired the 1961 ed. of Teach Yourself Irish without knowing that it specifically taught the Munster dialect of West Cork. And Cork, as it turns out, is where my Irish ancestors were from.

In college, I picked up Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish but I didn't have the time or the will to delve into it much. By the time I got into Irish seriously again, I'd come to the conclusion that I liked Munster better than Connemara Irish anyway and so I started to specifically seek out Munster materials.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby księżycowy » 2011-11-11, 21:45

That's kind of funny, cause I'm swinging the other way. I already have more resources for Connemara Irish, plus I like it thus far. So, I'm figuring on getting an active mastery of Connemara.

Interestingly enough my Irish ancestry comes from County Cork as well. And I would like to get a smidgen of Munster Irish too, but I figure any Irish will do in the end.

Not to butt in. :para:

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby linguoboy » 2011-11-11, 22:38

księżycowy wrote:Interestingly enough my Irish ancestry comes from County Cork as well. And I would like to get a smidgen of Munster Irish too, but I figure any Irish will do in the end.

It's a small enough community that everyone pretty much has to deal with all dialects in the end. Prosper (wish he'd join this conversation) has been PMing me in full-on Ulster. Sometimes it takes me a little while to work out what he's saying, but it's all good practice.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: pronunciation of a name

Postby księżycowy » 2011-11-11, 22:47

That's about it. :yep:


Return to “Celtic Languages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

cron