księżyc - Gaelainn

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-22, 2:57

Tá cion agam ar sheacláid bhán.

1. Ar causes lenition except in fixed phrases (e.g. Chuaigh Rónán ar seachrán is tháinig sé ar sheamróg "Ronan went astray and he found a shamrock").
2. Seacláid is feminine.
3. Cion is best translated as "regard" so tá cion agam ar is closer to "I have regard for" or "I value" than "I like", the usual translation of which is is maith liom.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-22, 8:52

I'm so stupid with initial mutations. I always forget about them. :oops:

And TYI gives both constructions, tá cion agam and is maith liom (under the chapter discussing likes, i might add) without much distinguishing between the two. So thanks for that.

So, a better Irish sentence for this would be:
Is maith liom seacláid bhán.
I'm assuming.

I'm puzzling over how to reorder this with ea, because the question asked if I specifically liked white chocolate (seacláid bhán), so the new information would be the liking.
So would it be:
Maith liom is ea seacláid bhán.
Or would this kind of construction typically not be reordered with ea to begin with?
Last edited by księżycowy on 2017-06-22, 9:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-06-22, 9:16

You don't need the "é" here. (And with linguoboy's information that it's feminine, it would be "í" anyway.)

I don't think "is ea" works here, this is not a classification sentence.
Last edited by kevin on 2017-06-22, 9:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-22, 9:18

kevin wrote:You don't need the "é" here. (And with linguoboy's information that it's feminine, it would be "í" anyway.)

Oh my God! That was a dumb mistake. :P

Fixed. Thanks kevin.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-06-22, 9:22

You're too fast for me on my phone. :) I edited my reply to answer the question that you added later, but you had already replied again... So posting again to make sure you see it.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-22, 9:27

I saw it (I'm on my phone too :lol: ):
kevin wrote:I don't think "is ea" works here, this is not a classification sentence.

TYI classifies the copular in terms of definition (that can use is ea) or identity (that doesn't). And I'm given to think that this wouldn't be a sentence of identity. Idk. Let's see what linguoboy thinks.

Knowing my luck, I'm in the wrong. :P

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-22, 12:41

księżycowy wrote:TYI classifies the copular in terms of definition (that can use is ea) or identity (that doesn't).

That's in the chapter where it discusses the use of the copula to join two NPs. The use of the copula with adjectives is discussed in chapter 10. Dillon and Ó Cróinín call these "sentences of description".

But this use of the copula to join adjectives or nouns with prepositions is yet another use, one which they don't really get into until chapter 17.

Don't assume any presentation of a grammar point in TYI is exhaustive. The authors often introduce clarifications and expansions as they go along.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-22, 12:54

I'm not assuming anything is exhaustive, that's why I asked in the first place (and also wanted to wait for you to chime in, as you know much more about Munster Irish then either of us).

I'm guessing that, based on what you both said, kevin is on the mark, and that this kind of construct would not use ea.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-22, 14:51

księżycowy wrote:I'm guessing that, based on what you both said, kevin is on the mark, and that this kind of construct would not use ea.

I think it could be used for emphasis, e.g. Maith is ea seacláid bhán liom, Liomsa is ea is maith seacláid bhán. (That's not a mistake in the second example; if you want to use ea here you have to repeat the copula. This isn't true where le represents ownership, e.g. Liomsa is ea seacláid bhán.)
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-22, 15:03

I find the placement of liom in these sentences very interesting.

I mean, I know that liom isn't an adjective, maith is. I guess ultimately it is the "good [of the] white chocolate" that is "with me".

I love-hate the way Irish phrases things. :lol:

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-22, 15:49

księżycowy wrote:I find the placement of liom in these sentences very interesting.

I mean, I know that liom isn't an adjective, maith is. I guess ultimately it is the "good [of the] white chocolate" that is "with me".

I think the fact that emphasising liom works differently in sentences where it expresses ownership than in sentences in which it expresses subjective estimation argues for these being two different types of construction despite their superficial resemblance. It's tricky to argue that it's nominalised given the existence of Is fearr liom and is miste liom/is measa liom.

Cad deineann tú cócaireacht ar bhia go hiondúil sa bhaile?

You can't use both cad and bia in this sentence. It's the equivalent of saying "What are you cooking food?"
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-22, 16:07

linguoboy wrote:I think the fact that emphasising liom works differently in sentences where it expresses ownership than in sentences in which it expresses subjective estimation argues for these being two different types of construction despite their superficial resemblance. It's tricky to argue that it's nominalised given the existence of Is fearr liom and is miste liom/is measa liom.

Interesting, thanks.

Cad deineann tú cócaireacht ar bhia go hiondúil sa bhaile?

You can't use both cad and bia in this sentence. It's the equivalent of saying "What are you cooking food?"

I wasn't sure.
So the correct sentence would be:
Cad deineann tú cócaireacht go hiondúil sa bhaile?
Maybe?
I was going to ask if cócaireacht was a verbal noun, but Ó Donaill seems to say that it is a noun. (Unless of course he counts verbal nouns the same as nouns)

Also, I just wrote:
An maith leat lus an choire? Ní maith le mo mháthair é, ach is maith liom é.
in the answer-ask game, which I'm hoping after the above conversation is correct. If so, is there a way to condense the second sentence?
Last edited by księżycowy on 2017-06-22, 16:09, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-06-22, 16:07

linguoboy wrote:I think it could be used for emphasis, e.g. Maith is ea seacláid bhán liom, Liomsa is ea is maith seacláid bhán.

Would you really tend to use "is ea is" in Munster rather than just "is"? Because "(Is) liomsa is maith seacláid bhán" should be perfectly valid (GnaG has a similar example, too).

Moving "maith" first (and away from "liom") somehow feels odd to me. But even then, I would have guessed that a simple copular relative clause without "ea" does the trick. Do you think that "ea" is required there or would it be optional?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-22, 16:33

księżycowy wrote:So the correct sentence would be:
Cad deineann tú cócaireacht go hiondúil sa bhaile?
Maybe?

No.

This is an oblique object. You can't use a direct relative clause to front it. You also can't make cad the object of a preposition. You have to follow it with a third-person form:

Cad air go ndeineann tú cócaireacht? (Cf. English "On what are you working?")

You should see parallels between this and the discussion of fronting objects of non-phrasal verbal nouns.

księżycowy wrote:I was going to ask if cócaireacht was a verbal noun, but Ó Donaill seems to say that it is a noun. (Unless of course he counts verbal nouns the same as nouns)

I don't believe he makes a distinction. There is a class of nouns which are not "verbal nouns" in the sense that they are not transparently derived from verbs. But in terms of function, they work just like other verbal nouns. Like cócaireacht, they are quite often derived from agent nouns without a corresponding verb, e.g. feirmeoireacht, siopadóireacht, even Gaeilgeoireacht ("Stephen Fry ag Gaeilgeoireacht ar son TÁ"). There are also a few derived from verbs which are now obsolete, at least with that meaning (e.g. feitheamh, from the obsolete verb feithim "I look at, I watch over", which is used more often in Munster than fanacht in the sense of "waiting for" or "expecting").

księżycowy wrote:Also, I just wrote:
An maith leat lus an choire? Ní maith le mo mháthair é, ach is maith liom é.
in the answer-ask game which I'm hoping after the above conversation, it's correct. If so, is there a way to condense the second sentence?

I can't think of a way which sounds natural.

I would prefer liomsa here because of the explicit contrast.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-22, 16:51

linguoboy wrote:No.

This is an oblique object. You can't use a direct relative clause to front it. You also can't make cad the object of a preposition. You have to follow it with a third-person form:

Cad air go ndeineann tú cócaireacht? (Cf. English "On what are you working?")

You should see parallels between this and the discussion of fronting objects of non-phrasal verbal nouns.

So, to make the Irish match more closely with my English translation it would be:
Cad air go ndeineann tú cócaireacht go hiondúil sa bhaile?
Or would I not bother with go hiondúil and/or sa bhaile? Or would these(?) be expressed in a different way?

I can't think of a way which sounds natural.

I would prefer liomsa here because of the explicit contrast.

Right, it would sound better with the emphatic particle.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-22, 17:34

księżycowy wrote:So, to make the Irish match more closely with my English translation it would be:
Cad air go ndeineann tú cócaireacht go hiondúil sa bhaile?
Or would I not bother with go hiondúil and/or sa bhaile? Or would these(?) be expressed in a different way?

Those sounds fine; I just didn't want to keep typing them out when that wasn't the part of the syntax at issue. (Though I do have a preference for habitual of with a progressive construction over using go hiondúil. I think context conveys habitual meaning without the need for either.)
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-22, 17:39

An mbíonn tú ag déanamh cócaireacht?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-23, 14:41

księżycowy wrote:An mbíonn tú ag déanamh cócaireacht?

"Do you be cooking?" (Irish English)
"Do you cook?" (American English)
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-23, 15:23

Wait, i thought that bíonn was the habitual present tense of , thus making it something more like "do/are you usually/habitually cook(ing)?" Maybe you just didn't feel like typing all that out?

I did forgot cad for some reason though.

So, is it cad bíonn tú ag déanamh cócaireacht? or is cad being screwy again (from my perspective that is :P )? [Or something else for that matter!]

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-23, 15:30

księżycowy wrote:Wait, i thought that bíonn was the habitual present tense of , thus making it something more like "do/are you usually/habitually cook(ing)?" Maybe you just didn't feel like typing all that out?

"do be" is the Irish English form of the habitual tense. Other forms of English use the simple present here.

księżycowy wrote:So, is it cad bíonn tú ag déanamh cócaireacht? or is cad being screwy again (from my perspective that is :P )? [Or something else for that matter!]

You seem to have forgotten everything I said about deinim cócaireacht ar being a phrasal verb and cad requiring a relativisation of the main clause.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


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