księżyc - Gaelainn

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-12, 14:32

księżycowy wrote:If I were to take out do, would i need the definite article?

Do bheadh.

księżycowy wrote:I also have a question regarding what I learned in Lesson VIII on the copula. (That lesson was quite mind blowing, by the way. I'm still not sure if I have fully understood it all. I probably haven't.)

That was probably the chapter that took me the longest to assimilate. I had to reread the explanations at least a dozen times before they really started to sink in.

księżycowy wrote:Is there any difference in meaning to the following two sentences:
Múinteoir maith is ea Séamas.
Séamas is ea múinteoir maith.
Or would the second sentence not be possible because of syntax or something?

It just doesn't look right to me. Remember that despite coming in final position, Séamas is considered the subject of this clause and not the predicate. It's also the topic; múinteoir maith is the comment, the new information the listener is presumably most interested in. In many languages, the topic precedes the comment, but that's not the case here.

I'm straining to think of a case where the syntactic roles would be reversed but not the definiteness.

księżycowy wrote:I'm curious because of the way that it is sometime stated in the English. For example:
Garsún mór is ea Séamas. - Séamas is a big boy. (which literally translated is something like "a big boy is Séamas")

Remember that sentences like these would typically be restructured to front the adjective:

Is maith an múinteoir é Séamas.
Is mór an garsún é Séamas.

At least, that's the impression that TYI gives.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-06-12, 15:33

linguoboy wrote:It just doesn't look right to me. Remember that despite coming in final position, Séamas is considered the subject of this clause and not the predicate. It's also the topic; múinteoir maith is the comment, the new information the listener is presumably most interested in. In many languages, the topic precedes the comment, but that's not the case here.

Can you translate something like "Who is a good teacher?" - "Séamus is a good teacher." with plain copular sentences? If I understand correctly, this wouldn't reverse the syntactic roles and "Séamus" would still be the subject in the answer, but it would make me want to move "Séamus" to the start.

But the only way I can think of to even phrase this question so that it doesn't sound incorrect to me is "Cé atá ina mhúinteoir maith?", which completely avoids the problem and therefore isn't useful in this context...

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-12, 19:08

linguoboy wrote:Do bheadh.

Go raibh maith agat!

Cé acu bhfuil fearr leis?
Cad é an caitheamh aimsire is fearr leat?
-nó-
Cad é aimsire an caitheamh is fearr leat?

That was probably the chapter that took me the longest to assimilate. I had to reread the explanations at least a dozen times before they really started to sink in.

And so it shall be with me. I'm going to move on so I don't get hung up on this and fry my brain, but I'll keep going back for sure.

It just doesn't look right to me. Remember that despite coming in final position, Séamas is considered the subject of this clause and not the predicate. It's also the topic; múinteoir maith is the comment, the new information the listener is presumably most interested in. In many languages, the topic precedes the comment, but that's not the case here.

Gotcha.


Remember that sentences like these would typically be restructured to front the adjective:

Is maith an múinteoir é Séamas.
Is mór an garsún é Séamas.

At least, that's the impression that TYI gives.

I thought that that's what the lesson had said, but then in almost every sentence of that type in the exercise they have it as I put it. :hmm:

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-12, 19:55

księżycowy wrote:Cad é an caitheamh aimsire is fearr leat?
-nó-
Cad é aimsire an caitheamh is fearr leat?

I don't see how the second one is grammatical.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-12, 20:00

I thought it was the first option. I mistakenly took aimsire as an adjective.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-12, 20:10

księżycowy wrote:I thought it was the first option.

N + Art + N is only used when both (a) nouns are definite; (b) they stand in a genitive relation; and (c) the first is the headnoun, e.g. i dtrácht na haimsire "with the passing of time". If only the headnoun is definite, the pattern is Art + N + N and if only the attributive noun is definite, it's a different construction altogether (i.e. N + de + Art + N). The headnoun always comes first.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-12, 20:18

Good to know, thanks.

I think it was mostly interference from our prior conversation about fronting adjectives.

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-13, 20:28

I just happened across this example glossary of TYI:
Cad tá ort?
My question is, cad would normally take the interrogative form of the verb (i.e. bhfuil), right?
Is this a set phrase?


Also, is do optional with conditional forms, like it is for the past tense? My Guess is yes based on our past conversation, but I just want to make sure that wasn't said just in the context of the past tense.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-13, 21:19

księżycowy wrote:I just happened across this example glossary of TYI:
Cad tá ort?
My question is, cad would normally take the interrogative form of the verb (i.e. bhfuil), right?

Nope.

Fuilim is the dependent form of the verb atáim/. One instance where dependent forms are used is after the interrogative particle an/ar. But this particle represents only one way of forming a question.

The reason (a) is used here is that this is a direct relative construction: (it is) what that is on you. Cad is the subject of the clause, not an adjunct, so direct relative with an independent form of the verb.

Compare this to complex question words incorporating prepositions, e.g. cad'na thaobh, cad chuige. Here cad is an adjunct to the main clause, so indirect relative with a dependent form, e.g. Cad'na thaobh go bhfuil imní ort? (it is) in the side of what that (there) is anxiety on you, i.e. "Why are you anxious?"

księżycowy wrote:Also, is do optional with conditional forms, like it is for the past tense?

Do is always optional.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-13, 21:25

Just when I think I'm starting to get Irish grammar down.....
:headbang:

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-13, 21:29

księżycowy wrote:Just when I think I'm starting to get Irish grammar down.....
:headbang:

I think next to the copula, relative clauses (specifically when to use a direct vs an indirect relative clause) are the trickiest point of Irish syntax. For confirmation, I would point out that they are much less extensively used by L2 speakers than by native speakers, who use them routinely for topicalisation and emphasis where L2/non-traditional speakers are more likely to use intonation patterns calqued from English.

Speaking of relative clauses:
Cad bhfuil tú go hiondúil ag ceannach?


Remember you have three choices here:

1. Direct relative with a (i.e. do) + VN: Cad tá tú go hiondúil a cheannach?

2. Indirect relative with á (i.e. do + a) + VN: Cad bhfuil tú go hiondúil á cheannach?

3. Direct relative with passive-progressive: Cad é tá agat á cheannach go hiondúil?

Remember also that bím is preferable to atáim when the meaning is habitual (and obviates the need to add go hiondúil). Or just use ceannaím.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-13, 22:09

Yeah, I'm still getting into all of the relative clause stuff. Irish grammar is a pain in my ass. :P

Cad bhfuil tú go hiondúil ag ceannach?


Remember you have three choices here:

1. Direct relative with a (i.e. do) + VN: Cad tá tú go hiondúil a cheannach?

2. Indirect relative with á (i.e. do + a) + VN: Cad bhfuil tú go hiondúil á cheannach?

3. Direct relative with passive-progressive: Cad é tá agat á cheannach go hiondúil?

Remember also that bím is preferable to atáim when the meaning is habitual (and obviates the need to add go hiondúil). Or just use ceannaím.

So, I could more directly ask: cad ceannaír go hiondúil? (probably ceannaíonn tú now-a-days)
I guess I thought that was a little too easy. :P

I'm surprised I used "how much" correctly for that matter.
*waits for linguoboy to find a mistake*

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-06-14, 9:56

księżycowy wrote:So, I could more directly ask: cad ceannaír go hiondúil? (probably ceannaíonn tú now-a-days)
I guess I thought that was a little too easy. :P

There's still a relative clause ("What is it that you buy usually"), so in the Caighdeán this would be "Cad a cheannaíonn tú go hiondúil?"

Now I'm not sure whether your book teaches to write the relative particle "a" because both of you wrote "tá"/"bhfuil" rather than "atá"/"a bhfuil" (I would still expect the "a" to be there, but I'm prepared for any weirdness with Munster, or dialectal spelling in general :)), but you'll have at least the lenition.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-14, 18:58

kevin wrote:Now I'm not sure whether your book teaches to write the relative particle "a" because both of you wrote "tá"/"bhfuil" rather than "atá"/"a bhfuil" (I would still expect the "a" to be there, but I'm prepared for any weirdness with Munster, or dialectal spelling in general :)), but you'll have at least the lenition.

I sometimes drop the a because it is absent in pronunciation even though it's a part of the standard written form.

I just looked in the glossary of TYI, and indeed it has the pronunciation for inniu as /ɪˈnʹuv/. (Not that I didn't trust you, but rather to see the full pronunciation).

That is actually interesting. Is there a reason for the /v/ at the end? Was that in Old or Middle Irish?

The pre-reform spelling is aniogh and I believe the corresponding Old Irish is i ndiu. In origin, it is a(n instrumental?) form of día "day".

Cf. tiubh (Trad: tiugh) for another instance of historical /ɣ/ being labialised to /v/ following /u/.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-14, 20:44

That is interesting indeed.

eDIL does give aniugh, and aniubh as forms of indiu.
Sorry to have asked, but I'm interested in Old and Middle Irish as well. (Which is part of the reason I don't mind at all using a dated textbook like TYI. :P )

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-20, 14:57

ag an nduine

Don't forget that the DeNTaLS rule applies only to lenition, not to eclipsis. Also:

ag obair working
ag an obair at work (i.e. at the place where you work)

Ní chaillim.

Defensible, but I probably would've translated the implied question as Tá cailleadh gruaige ar an nduine im' dhiaidh or Tá an duine im' dhiaidh ag cailleadh a chuid gruaige and answered Nílim.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-20, 15:14

I need to refresh my memory on when eclipsis happens.

And I had wondered about expressing "at work". I did worry that my translation might turn out to be "working".

And while we're at it, I've had two questions since I've been over the whole copula chapter.

1) What happens when there is a first or second person subject? Would that be possible with is, or would that be a tá + ina construction? Or neither? Ore both? :hmm:

2) Does the word order for the copula change with , an, nach, etc.?

In other words, I get that word order with is can be either of the following:
Is fear ea.
-or-
Fear is ea é. (This being the norm for Munster)

But is the second version possible for any of the other particles (or whatever the devil you call them :P )?
So you would wind up with something like:
Fear an ea é?

Having not seen any such examples so far, I'm inclined to say that is an impossible ordering, but I'm curious none-the-less.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-20, 15:25

księżycowy wrote:And while we're at it, I've had two questions since I've been over the whole copula chapter.

1) What happens when there is a first or second person subject? Would that be possible with is, or would that be a tá + ina construction? Or neither? Ore both? :hmm:

Use of the tá + ina construction is most common in Donegal. In Munster, it's mainly used in tenses other than the present.

Is is used with all persons. Just substitute é in the TYI examples with , sinn, iad, etc. as appropriate.

księżycowy wrote:2) Does the word order for the copula change with , an, nach, etc.?

In other words, I get that word order with is can be either of the following:
Is fear ea.
-or-
Fear is ea é. (This being the norm for Munster)

But is the second version possible for any of the other particles (or whatever the devil you call them :P )?
So you would wind up with something like:
Fear an ea é?

This is ungrammatical.

The alternative syntax with ea is only possible in the affirmative.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-20, 15:37

linguoboy wrote:Use of the tá + ina construction is most common in Donegal. In Munster, it's mainly used in tenses other than the present.

Is is used with all persons. Just substitute é in the TYI examples with , sinn, iad, etc. as appropriate.

Or the name, as in our example above: Múinteoir maith is ea Séamas.

So, if I wanted to say, "You are a good teacher", I could say either is maith an múinteoir tú or múinteoir maith is ea tú, right?

I specifically singled out the first and second persons because all of the examples in Lesson VIII of TYI with is used the third person.


This is ungrammatical.

The alternative syntax with ea is only possible in the affirmative.

So my hunch was right.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-20, 16:07

księżycowy wrote:So, if I wanted to say, "You are a good teacher", I could say either is maith an múinteoir thú or múinteoir maith is ea thú, right?

Maith an fear thú!
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


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