księżyc - Gaelainn

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-24, 20:28

If I didn't love Irish, and want to specifically learn Munster Irish I swear this book would be the death of me. :roll: It would be so much better if they had put an English - Irish glossary in the back in addition to an Irish - English one.

The current lesson I'm reviewing (VII) asks me to translate "your (sg) stick". I don't ever recall seeing the word for 'stick' in any of the lessons so far.....
*sigh*

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-24, 21:29

I don't really think it's a usable book on its own (which is my excuse for failing to learn Irish from it the first time I picked it up). Fortunately there are resources galore available online these days.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-24, 21:51

Yeah, between the grammar website, and online dictionaries, I am making it work.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-28, 17:52

I'm not sure if you'll be able to answer this question linguoboy, but I have to say I'm a bit curious.

I have more than one physical copy of TY Irish, one from 1962 (hardcover), and one from 1987 (softcover). My question comes about because of two things:
Firstly, David Smith here (and surely other places as well) says that he has used the 1987 version during the process of re-typesetting the book in order to provide the "corrections" that edition provides.
Secondly, having two versions in hand, I do notice that IX, for example, uses the word garraí for "garden" in the 1962 version, but uses gairdín in the 1987 version.

My question is this: what is the nature of the changes between the different versions? Are they actual corrections, or are they just stylistic changes or something of the like?

Out of curiosity, I did look up the word garraí in Ó Dónaill and it does indeed mean "garden."

I ask because I like using the hardcover as opposed to the softcover, and want to make sure it's not steering me too wrongly. :P I know we've discussed other shortcomings of the text lately.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-30, 14:31

How do lenition and the emphatic particle work in nouns that are made up of two words?
For example, here is a question I posted in the Answer-ask game recently:
Cá dtaoi dul ar do lá saoire-se anois?

Theoretically would be lented (if 'l' could be that is), but what about saoire? If I where to use the emphatic particle -sa/se (like I tried to :P ), where would it go? On ? On saoire? Or neither?


Also, for "blue sky", I'm hoping that like English "blue" in this case would be an adjective. Thus translating to an spéir gorm.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-30, 14:38

księżycowy wrote:I have more than one physical copy of TY Irish, one from 1962 (hardcover), and one from 1987 (softcover). My question comes about because of two things:
Firstly, David Smith here (and surely other places as well) says that he has used the 1987 version during the process of re-typesetting the book in order to provide the "corrections" that edition provides.

I'm not seeing that in the excerpt you posted.

księżycowy wrote:My question is this: what is the nature of the changes between the different versions? Are they actual corrections, or are they just stylistic changes or something of the like?

Having used first the softcover and then switching to the hardcover, I can't say as I noticed any differences at all. So I wouldn't worry.

księżycowy wrote:For example, here is a question I posted in the Answer-ask game recently:
dtaoibhuil tú[*] ag dul ar do lá saoire-se anois?

księżycowy wrote:Theoretically would be lented (if 'l' could be that is), but what about saoire?

Only if you were dealing with a so-called "functional genitive", which you're not in this case. Lenition is generally not "transitive" (though the declination of attributive adjectives may give that impression).

księżycowy wrote:If I where to use the emphatic particle -sa/se (like I tried to :P ), where would it go? On ? On saoire? Or neither?

It may depend on how tightly the NP is constituted. Since lá saoire is a loose compound, I would put it after saoire. GnaG includes the example ár dtrí cinn-ne where the NP consists of numeral plus noun and O Donaill has a mhac mórsan and m’iníon ógsa with a following adjective but mo chuidse den obair where the modifier is a prepositional phrase.

księżycowy wrote:Also, for "blue sky", I'm hoping that like English "blue" in this case would be an adjective. Thus translating to an spéir gorm.

Except spéir is feminine so it's an spéir ghorm.

[*] Other (Munster) possibilities, in decreasing order of frequency, would be bhuileann tú and bhuilir. *dtaoi does not exist in any case. The older stem of the verb is atáim, which is preserved as a relative form, and this prevents any sort of lenition in the Standard (though it occurs in Munster dialects, particularly those of Kerry) and any form of eclipsis (which is purely theoretical, since atáim has a full set of dependent forms).
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-30, 15:17

linguoboy wrote:I'm not seeing that in the excerpt you posted.

It's the first sentence or two of the description. I can't access the site on my work computer, but I be happy to quote it when I get home. I can also post pictures of the Lesson I referenced as well.

Having used first the softcover and then switching to the hardcover, I can't say as I noticed any differences at all. So I wouldn't worry.

I get the feeling that it's mostly just some minor vocabulary changes. From what I've read so far in both "editions", I noticed nothing different about the grammar or exercises.

Is garraí used much now-a-days? It seems like it's a synonym to gairdín.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-30, 15:31

Only if you were dealing with a so-called "functional genitive", which you're not in this case. Lenition is generally not "transitive" (though the declination of attributive adjectives may give that impression).

So, in general, lenition will only occur with the first word of a pair of connected words (such as a NP), like in the example. Thanks.

It may depend on how tightly the NP is constituted. Since lá saoire is a loose compound, I would put it after saoire. GnaG includes the example ár dtrí cinn-ne where the NP consists of numeral plus noun and O Donaill has a mhac mórsan and m’iníon ógsa with a following adjective but mo chuidse den obair where the modifier is a prepositional phrase.

Interesting. So there could be a case where the emphatic particle comes in the middle of the NP?

Except spéir is feminine so it's an spéir ghorm.

Right. For some reason I was thinking lenition occured with masculine nouns.


dtaoibhuil tú[*] ag dul ar do lá saoire-se anois?

Other (Munster) possibilities, in decreasing order of frequency, would be bhuileann tú and bhuilir. *dtaoi does not exist in any case. The older stem of the verb is atáim, which is preserved as a relative form, and this prevents any sort of lenition in the Standard (though it occurs in Munster dialects, particularly those of Kerry) and any form of eclipsis (which is purely theoretical, since atáim has a full set of dependent forms).

I forgot about the interogative forms of táim there. Oops. One the plus side, I remembered the eclipsis for the interrogative. :P

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-30, 15:47

księżycowy wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I'm not seeing that in the excerpt you posted.

It's the first sentence or two of the description. I can't access the site on my work computer, but I be happy to quote it when I get home. I can also post pictures of the Lesson I referenced as well.

Silly me, I was only looking at the excerpt itself, not at the text below.

I remember noticing a couple typos in TYI but nothing significant.

Is garraí used much now-a-days? It seems like it's a synonym to gairdín.

A Lón Dubh would be the person to ask about that. That's the word I've always used and people seem to understand it just fine.

księżycowy wrote:Interesting. So there could be a case where the emphatic particle comes in the middle of the NP?

Maybe? I'm not too sure what happens when there are more than a couple of constituents. I get the feeling that emphatic suffixes simply aren't used much with NPs that long.

księżycowy wrote:Right. For some reason I was thinking lenition occured with masculine nouns.

It does, but only in the genitive, e.g. (chun) an Gharraí Mhóir.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-30, 15:57

I was thinking more simply: 2 components. Would it not happen in a NP consisting of 2 parts?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-30, 16:00

księżycowy wrote:I was thinking more simply: 2 components. Would it not happen in a NP consisting of 2 parts?

I don't want to make any absolute generalisations. I can only tell you that offhand I can't think of any examples.

BTW, where'd you pick up cad fá?
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-30, 16:03

Cad fá?

EDIT: Oh, for "why"? If memory doesn't fail me, from de Bhaldraithe.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-30, 16:36

księżycowy wrote:Cad fá?

EDIT: Oh, for "why"? If memory doesn't fail me, from de Bhaldraithe.

AFAIK, it's not used in West Cork at all. It may even be strictly literary. In any case, the usual WC is cad'na thaobh, pronounced as if cannathaobh (i.e. primary stress on the final syllable and secondary stress on the first leading to preservation of the vowel).

Also, uaireadóra is a genitive form and shouldn't be used as a direct object unless a participle is involved (e.g. An bhuil tu ag goid m'uaireadóra?).
Last edited by linguoboy on 2017-05-30, 16:37, edited 1 time in total.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-30, 16:37

I have a feeling I completely fucked up the second half of this sentence. But curiousity makes me want to ask:
Cá rabhais ag déiradh an inné ag socrú sin?
Itś suppose to to ask, "what were you doing yesterday before bed?"

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-30, 16:43

linguoboy wrote:AFAIK, it's not used in West Cork at all. It may even be strictly literary. In any case, the usual WC is cad'na thaobh, pronounced as if cannathaobh (i.e. primary stress on the final syllable and secondary stress on the first leading to preservation of the vowel).


This is why dictionaries of Irish should reflect dialectal differences too. :evil:
I mean, how am I suppose to learn Munster usages short of reading a bunch of literature in it, or talk to people and ask them? I wish there was a good alternative. (I mean, it's not that the other two alternatives are bad, they just seem bothersome, either to me in searching literature, or to the person I'm asking.)

It probably sounds odd (to natives anyway), to use a CO form like cad fá, where it is nothing like the dialectal form. Or so I assume.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-30, 16:58

księżycowy wrote:I have a feeling I completely fucked up the second half of this sentence. But curiousity makes me want to ask:
Cá rabhais ag déiradh an inné ag socrú sin?
Itś suppose to to ask, "what were you doing yesterday before bed?"

Um...kinda? :blush:

1. is "where", not "what". (That would be cad.)
2. I wouldn't use socraím to mean simply "do"; use deinim.
3. Inné is an adverb (etymologically i ndé, where is the same archaic dative of dia used in the names of days of the week). If you want to nominalise it, you need to add an lá, e.g. ag deireadh an lae inné "at the end of the day yesterday".
4. Adverbial phrases like that normally come last in the sentence. The progressive construction is a tight one in any case and normally doesn't allow any intervening complements.
5. Objects with the verbal noun are a whole nother can of worms. I can explain if you want, but you'd be better off just using the simple past for now.

Cad (é) a dheinis?

is simply a much easier construction than:

Cad bhí á dhéanamh agat?

I mean, how am I suppose to learn Munster usages short of reading a bunch of literature in it, or talk to people and ask them?

For basic function words like this, you can (a) use the table of contents in TYI or (b) consult the relevant pages in GnaG. (The author is very good about noting dialectal usages where appropriate.)
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-30, 18:33

linguoboy wrote:Um...kinda? :blush:

I seem to have done a better job than I anticipated. :lol:

1. is "where", not "what". (That would be cad.)

My mistake. I'll get these question words down eventually.
2. I wouldn't use socraím to mean simply "do"; use deinim.

I was attempting to use socrú to mean something to the effect of "sleep", not 'do.' I apparently mispelled deineadh.
3. Inné is an adverb (etymologically i ndé, where is the same archaic dative of dia used in the names of days of the week). If you want to nominalise it, you need to add an lá, e.g. ag deireadh an lae inné "at the end of the day yesterday".

Good to know. I looked it up in the back of TYI, but didn't see much grammar/usage information for the entry.
4. Adverbial phrases like that normally come last in the sentence. The progressive construction is a tight one in any case and normally doesn't allow any intervening complements.

Also very good to know.
5. Objects with the verbal noun are a whole nother can of worms. I can explain if you want, but you'd be better off just using the simple past for now.

I think I have enough troubles at the moment. :P But I hope that TYI goes over this, and thus I'll get your explanation then.

For basic function words like this, you can (a) use the table of contents in TYI or (b) consult the relevant pages in GnaG. (The author is very good about noting dialectal usages where appropriate.)

That was a more generalized rant, but I do tend to reference the back of TYI after looking a word up in a dictionary or the like, to make sure that form is used in Munster.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-30, 20:11

linguoboy wrote:
Cad (é) a dheinis?

is simply a much easier construction than:

Cad bhí á dhéanamh agat?

What is the a/á here? I can't imagine it's the third person possessive, that wouldn't make any sense (not to mention the second one is á anyway).
This means, "What did you do?" or something to that effect, yes? (more literally, "what were you doing?" for the second version)

Is it easier to add the second half of my sentence to this phrase?
Last edited by księżycowy on 2017-05-30, 20:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-30, 20:11

księżycowy wrote:
1. is "where", not "what". (That would be cad.)

My mistake. I'll get these question words down eventually.

Maybe after you get to the chapter on them in TYI? (I can't remember when it comes, but it can't be too much longer.)

księżycowy wrote:
2. I wouldn't use socraím to mean simply "do"; use deinim.

I was attempting to use socrú to mean something to the effect of "sleep", not 'do.' I apparently mispelled deinadh.

There is no *deinadh. (Caol le caol is leathan le leathan!) If you want the verbal noun of deinim, you need to use a different ending (-amh) and a different stem (déan, also used for future and conditional). I thought you were trying to use deireadh "end".

I see now what happened with socrú. The verb socraím is derived from socair meaning "level"[*] or "easy", so the verb means "settle" both in the more literal sense of "come/put to rest" and in the more metaphorical sense of "arrange", "deal with". I thought you meant the latter because I've never seen anyone use socrú in reference to sleep (codladh) or going to bed (dul a luí).

księżycowy wrote:
3. Inné is an adverb (etymologically i ndé, where is the same archaic dative of dia used in the names of days of the week). If you want to nominalise it, you need to add an lá, e.g. ag deireadh an lae inné "at the end of the day yesterday".

Good to know. I looked it up in the back of TYI, but didn see much grammar/usage information for the entry.

Which should be a tip-off. It's very consistent about giving genitive forms for nouns.

księżycowy wrote:
4. Adverbial phrases like that normally come last in the sentence. The progressive construction is a tight one in any case and normally doesn't allow any intervening complements.

Also very good to know.

The basic affirmative sentence order is:
verb + subject + dir. object + indir. object + local modifier + modal modifier + temporal modifier

Source: http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/satz2.htm#der%20einfache%20Satz

(Translated into more familiar terminology, the sequence of adverbials is place manner time, the exact opposite of German.)

księżycowy wrote:
5. Objects with the verbal noun are a whole nother can of worms. I can explain if you want, but you'd be better off just using the simple past for now.

I think I have enough troubles at the moment. :P But I hope that TYI goes over this, and thus Iĺl get your explanation then.

It does not. There is, however, a good explanation in GnaG.

księżycowy wrote:
For basic function words like this, you can (a) use the table of contents in TYI or (b) consult the relevant pages in GnaG. (The author is very good about noting dialectal usages where appropriate.)

That was a more generalized rant, but I do tend to reference the back of TYI after looking a word up in a dictionary or the like, to make sure that form is used in Munster.

That makes more sense for nouns or verbs (and even then it's not much of a guide, because the corpus is so small). As long as you're having to look up a function word, might as well cut out the middleman.

[*] Replaced by cothrom in contemporary usage.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-30, 20:26

linguoboy wrote:There is no *deinadh. (Caol le caol is leathan le leathan!) If you want the verbal noun of deinim, you need to use a different ending (-amh) and a different stem (déan, also used for future and conditional).

Oh. My. God.

It's always something with Irish!

I had just fixed it to deineadh above. (Which still has the same issue of being the wrong stem)
*sigh*
At least I remembered caol le caol is leathan le leathan. A bit too, late, but at least I remembered.

I see now what happened with socrú. The verb socraím is derived from socair meaning "level"[*] or "easy", so the verb means "settle" both in the more literal sense of "come/put to rest" and in the more metaphorical sense of "arrange", "deal with". I thought you meant the latter because I've never seen anyone use socrú in reference to sleep (codladh) or going to bed (dul a luí).

I was wondering about using socrú, but I couldn't figure out an better alternatives.

It does not. There is, however, a good explanation in GnaG.

Figures.

and even then it's not much of a guide, because the corpus is so small

Which is exactly the source of my rant.

I'm beginning to think the question I'm trying to translate is a bit too advanced for my 8-lessons-in knowledge of Irish. :whistle:


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