księżyc - Gaelainn

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-03-13, 3:58

księżycowy wrote:Anyone have any recommendations for singers/artists that sing in Munster Irish?
I'm making the assumption that most (if not all of it) will be traditional Irish music, and that is more than fine.

Most music in traditional dialect is traditional music. (There are a few exceptions, such as Clannad and Enya, where you have native speakers of a traditional Ulster dialect singing pop music.)

I'm partial to the songs of the Ó Súilleabháin clan of Cúil Aodha, particularly Diarmuid, in the sean-nós style. It's easier to find recordings of his brother Eoiní Mhaidhcí, who outlived him by several decades. Danny, the oldest, is better known for macaronic songs. I haven't found much online from the sisters. There's also a well-regarded choir from the same town, Cór Chúil Aodha.

Start poking around YouTube and you'll find a wealth of older recordings, many of them subtitled or with lyrics in the comments. The songs range from humourous ones of recent vintage (e.g. "Táim in Arrears") to 18th-century laments ("Táim Sínte ar Do Thuama"). Some great documentaries from RTÉs archives have been popping up lately, such as this one, which has got me reading Corkery at last.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-03-13, 9:30

Thanks, I'll start poking around.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-04-22, 11:53

So I'm a good few lessons in, and I'm becoming a bit frustrated with the vocabulary lists. Or maybe it's the way I'm going about learning the vocabulary, I don't know....

For anyone else who has used (or is currently using) the old TY (I'm mostly looking at linguoboy, but just in case anyone else pops in), did/do you think that the vocabulary lists were adequate when weighed against the exercises? How did/do you go about learning the vocabulary? Did/Do you learn the genitive and plural forms of the words given in only the singular?

It's almost as if the text is trying to make you figure out the plurals and genitives based on the paradigms, unless they are unusual in some way. Which, at least in my opinion, is not a good way to do it. I'm trying to learn all the necessary forms of a word, but am I getting ahead of my self? I can't tell any more. :doggy:

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-22, 16:22

księżycowy wrote:For anyone else who has used (or is currently using) the old TY (I'm mostly looking at linguoboy, but just in case anyone else pops in), did/do you think that the vocabulary lists were adequate when weighed against the exercises? How did/do you go about learning the vocabulary? Did/Do you learn the genitive and plural forms of the words given in only the singular?

I used the glossary in back a lot. It gives genitive singular and plural forms for all nouns.

księżycowy wrote:It's almost as if the text is trying to make you figure out the plurals and genitives based on the paradigms, unless they are unusual in some way. Which, at least in my opinion, is not a good way to do it. I'm trying to learn all the necessary forms of a word, but am I getting ahead of my self? I can't tell any more. :doggy:

Seems to me that's a fine way to do it. Most of the vocabulary you learn in a language you pick up in context without a full paradigm laid out for you. Like many languages, Irish has a relatively small number of highly-irregular nouns and then a vast majority which fit into the common declensions. My experience was that it didn't take me that much exposure to get a feel for the patterns and guess correctly when presented with new nouns.

I really don't think that trying to memorise all principal parts is the best approach. As the authors point out, there's lots of accepted variation when it comes to plural formation. So I would concentrate on learning the singular genitive forms. What do you think of trying to guess the correct form when presented with a new word in the vocabulary lists and then consulting the end glossary to see if you got it right?
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-04-22, 17:25

Hmm. I could give that a try.

Do you think I should focus on memorising the genitive singular or nominative-accusative singular forms? (I know you said genitive, just making sure) I'm completely down with only learning one form of the word and going from there.

I use the glossary in the back a lot too.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-22, 20:22

księżycowy wrote:Do you think I should focus on memorising the genitive singular or nominative-accusative singular forms? (I know you said genitive, just making sure) I'm completely down with only learning one form of the word and going from there.

If you learn only one form, make it the NOM-ACC.

Let's do a quick quiz. Here are the nouns from the Lesson VIII glossary. Can you give the g.s. and n.-a. pl forms without looking them up? (I quizzed myself and go only two wrong.)

am
captaen
cluiche
comhairle
cruithneacht
dochtúir
eorna
Gaelainn
Gearmánach
iascaire
long
Meirceánach
múinteoir
obair
scoláire
seol
tigh
trua
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-04-23, 10:35

The only "cheating" I'm doing is refreshing my knowledge of Lesson 1, and looking at Lesson 8's vocabulary to see if there's are masculine or feminine.

N-a sing -> gen. sing -> n-a pl.
am - aim - aim
cluiche - cluiche - cluichí
comhairle - comhairle - comhairleanna
cruithneacht - cruithneighte :?:
dochtúir - dochtúir - dochtúirí (I did look this one up, where does the gen. -úra ending come from?)
eorna - eorna
Gaelainn - Gaelaine
Gaeilge - Gaeilge (since that's the word for Irish they actually give)
Gearmánach - isn't this an adjective?
iascaire - iascaire - iascairí
long - loinge - longa
Meirceánach - isn't this another adjective?
múinteoir - múinteoir - múinteoirí (I remembered this pl.)
obair - oibre - oibreanna (I actually remembered this gen. on my own)
scoláire - scoláire - scoláirí
seol - seoil - seoil
tigh - tigh - isn't this plural irregular?
trua - trua

Having done this, I guess most of my issue is with masculine nouns that end with slender consonants, and feminine nouns the end in vowels. There's nothing i can recall being said in the lessons about either group. Do they follow the same rules as for the groups of nouns already discussed? I kind of assume they do, and if so, itvwould have been nice for them to be explicitly stated.


I quizzed myself and go only two wrong.

Well, you are much more familiar with Irish than I am at the moment.
I'm sure my wrong count will be a bit higher. :P

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-04-23, 12:29

If it makes you feel better, my count was a bit higher, too. ;)

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-04-23, 13:51

I haven't checked most of them yet, I'm waiting for linguoboy. Then again,. I suppose I could, out of curiosity.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-23, 14:23

księżycowy wrote:am - ama - amanta [WC]/amanna [CO]

Tricky one. Looks 1st declension but is actually 3rd. West Cork has generalised the -anta plural associated with nouns of time (e.g. blianta, uaireanta).

księżycowy wrote:comhairle - comhairle - comhairlí

A common 2nd declension noun like cluiche. The plural ending -anna is most common with monosyllabic nouns (except in Connemara, which has a real fondness for strong plurals).

księżycowy wrote:cruithneacht - cruithneachta [CO]/cruithneachtan [WC]

3rd again! This is one of the two I got wrong, since all the other multisyllabic nouns in -acht I know are regular. Must be a remnant of an older nasal declension (cf. teanga, g.s. teangan).

księżycowy wrote:dochtúir - dochtúra - dochtúirí (I did look this one up, where does the gen. -úra ending come from?)

By analogy. Historically, it would've been identical to the n/a.

księżycowy wrote:Gaelainn - Gaelainne

Remember that slender n and nn are pronounced differently in West Cork!

księżycowy wrote:Gearmánach - isn't this an adjective?

It's also a noun. The declensions are slightly different.

księżycowy wrote:múinteoir - múinteora - múinteoirí
obair - oibre - oibreacha
seol - seoil - seolta
tigh - tí - isn't this plural irregular?

It's actually more irregular in CO, where the n/a s is teach. But tigh > tithe puts it in line with 4th declension substantives in (historically -ighe) that pluralise in -ithe (historically -ighthe).

księżycowy wrote:Having done this, I guess most of my issue is with masculine nouns that end with slender consonants, and feminine nouns the end in vowels. There's nothing i can recall being said in the lessons about either group. Do they follow the same rules as for the groups of nouns already discussed? I kind of assume they do, and if so, it would have been nice for them to be explicitly stated.

You had the most trouble with 3rd declension nouns, which aren't actually covered until Lesson XI (and then only briefly). Most masculines with slender endings fall into this category since they are agent nouns in -óir, -eoir, -úir, etc. (Even buachaill falls into this category.)
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-04-23, 15:01

I guess it's all those little intricacies that drove me to try to memorize the gen. sg. and n-a. pl. forms in the first place.

At least it was mostly noun forms that haven't been covered yet that I had trouble with.

Regarding Gaelainn and Gaelaine, i was debating whether to keep the <nn> or not. Sad fact is, I almost did.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-24, 1:44

księżycowy wrote:Regarding Gaelainn and Gaelaine, i was debating whether to keep the <nn> or not. Sad fact is, I almost did.

I've make it easy: I don't know of any noun that drops a consonant in this inflection[*], only ones that syncopate vowels (e.g. obair > oibre, solas > soilse).

[*] The exception--because there's always an exception--is gh or ch, reflecting the orthographic change of ighe to í, e.g. tigh > (< tighe), gealach > gealaí (< gealaighe).
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-20, 16:47

Am I right in assuming that the dependent forms of the verb táim (the past tense forms given in Lesson VI) are used with particles (ar, níor, etc.; but not do), and that the absolute form is used basically when you're not negating or asking a question? Is this true of any other dependent/absolute verb forms (which I assume mostly, if not complete, affects only the verb to be)?

I don't recall seeing an explanation on the the uses of the absolute and dependent forms of verbs, so I want to make sure I got this right.

Also, it looks to me like the particle do can be dropped. Is that right?
For example, sentence 2 in exercise 14 is:
Bhíomair ag caint leis an ngarda.
Why is it not "Do bhíomair..."?
I can't recall if there were any examples of this before lesson VI, but I know there are plenty after.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-05-20, 19:37

księżycowy wrote:Am I right in assuming that the dependent forms of the verb táim (the past tense forms given in Lesson VI) are used with particles (ar, níor, etc.; but not do), and that the absolute form is used basically when you're not negating or asking a question?

It depends on the particle (or conjunction). A few of them go with the independent form (such as the direct relative particle or the past particle do that you mention), but most of them require a dependent verb form. This doesn't only include negating or asking questions, but also things like go (= that).

Is this true of any other dependent/absolute verb forms (which I assume mostly, if not complete, affects only the verb to be)?

It works the same way for all verbs that have a separate dependent form. It's not only , but it's not widespread either Only some of the irregular verbs do this.

Also, it looks to me like the particle do can be dropped. Is that right?

I'll leave this question to linguoboy because do (except before vowels) is a Munster thing anyway. This makes it seem likely to me that even there it's optional today, but I can't say for sure.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-20, 19:41

księżycowy wrote:Am I right in assuming that the dependent forms of the verb táim (the past tense forms given in Lesson VI) are used with particles (ar, níor, etc.; but not do), and that the absolute form is used basically when you're not negating or asking a question? Is this true of any other dependent/absolute verb forms (which I assume mostly, if not complete, affects only the verb to be)?

You can find an explanation of dependent forms with a complete list of particles used with them and links to conjugations for the verbs which preserve them on this site: http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/gram.htm. Unfortunately, I can't link to that page directly, but it's found under The Verb > The Conjugation > Explanation of Conjugation > dependent and autonomous forms.

I don't believe it's explained until later, but past tense particles are not used with forms of atáim/ except for do (but see below). I.e. an raibh[*], ní raibh, go raibh, etc. Essentially, the past tense particle ro is merged with the verb form rather than with the particle. (Cf. CO rinne mé for Munster (do) dheineas, etc.)

księżycowy wrote:Also, it looks to me like the particle do can be dropped. Is that right?

Do is always optional. The only past tense particle required with autonomous forms is the abbreviated form d' before vowel-initial verbs. In CO, Connaught, and Ulster, do always omitted before consonants and this is increasingly true of Munster as well. It was already optional when TYI was written, so I imagine the usage is only preserved today among older speakers. (Ó Siadhail might say something to that effect in Modern Irish.)

[*] An here surfaces in speech as [ə].
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-05-20, 19:56

linguoboy wrote:Unfortunately, I can't link to that page directly, but it's found under The Verb > The Conjugation > Explanation of Conjugation > dependent and autonomous forms.

The direct link is http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/verb1.htm#spleach.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-20, 20:15

kevin wrote:It depends on the particle (or conjunction). A few of them go with the independent form (such as the direct relative particle or the past particle do that you mention), but most of them require a dependent verb form. This doesn't only include negating or asking questions, but also things like go (= that).

Right, I was oversimplifying. I remembered go after reading your reply.

It works the same way for all verbs that have a separate dependent form. It's not only , but it's not widespread either Only some of the irregular verbs do this.

I should have guessed there were a few more. From my present perspective, being 8ish lessons into TYI, I haven't met any other irregular verbs aside from /táim. (I wrote it as táim above because of how TYI deals with citing verbs, just FYI).

linguoboy wrote:You can find an explanation of dependent forms with a complete list of particles used with them and links to conjugations for the verbs which preserve them on this site[...]

kevin wrote:The direct link is http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/verb1.htm#spleach.

Huh, I was just on that site this morning, but must have looked in the wrong places, or just missed it. Thanks guys.

linguoboy wrote:I don't believe it's explained until later, but past tense particles are not used with forms of atáim/ except for do (but see below). I.e. an raibh[*], ní raibh, go raibh, etc. Essentially, the past tense particle ro is merged with the verb form rather than with the particle. (Cf. CO rinne mé for Munster (do) dheineas, etc.)

Ok, that's good to know. I don't think I saw that in lesson VI. I know that in Lesson VII the authors go over the particle ro, and it's various forms [níor, ar, nár (neg. interr.), gur, nár("that not")], but it doesn't mention anything about them not being used with forms of táim.
Can I assume they are used with other dependent verbs forms?

Do is always optional. The only past tense particle required with autonomous forms is the abbreviated form d' before vowel-initial verbs. In CO, Connaught, and Ulster, do always omitted before consonants and this is increasingly true of Munster as well. It was already optional when TYI was written, so I imagine the usage is only preserved today among older speakers. (Ó Siadhail might say something to that effect in Modern Irish.)

[*] An here surfaces in speech as [ə].

Good to note. Thanks!

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-05-20, 20:55

Ok, that's good to know. I don't think I saw that in lesson VI. I know that in Lesson VII the authors go over the particle ro, and it's various forms [níor, ar, nár (neg. interr.), gur, nár("that not")], but it doesn't mention anything about them not being used with forms of táim.
Can I assume they are used with other dependent verbs forms?

It's a similar set of irregular verbs, but not exactly the same. I'll just give you another GnaG link with a table of which irregular verbs do what: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/verb1.htm#un ... A4%C3%9Fig

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-20, 20:58

Much appreciated, kevin!

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2017-05-24, 19:34

"Do" in Munster now has the unusual effect of intensifying the past tense, sort of "definitely X-ed".


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