księżyc - Gaelainn

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Re: księżycowy - Questions

Postby księżycowy » 2011-04-28, 19:56

linguoboy wrote:For that you need the copula, which merits its own chapter in most grammars of Irish. Have you started learning it yet?

Nope, but I'll keep my eyes out for it. The only verbs I really learned thus far it the present tense forms of /níl/bhfuil and one form of deir. (Basically only the first two real grammar lessons of LI)

Ann is used when you can't or don't want to be more specific. It's also used for pure existentials, e.g. "An bhfuil siopaí dá leithéid ann?" "Are there shops like that?"

Thanks, I think I'm starting to get it.

Again, this is not unlike English. E.g.: "Bhíos i gCúil Aodha inné." "Oh, an bhfuil siopaí ann?" You're not asking here if shops exist in general, you're asking if they exist in the specific place already mentioned.

I see.

Thanks for all that. I think it's starting to sink in what ann is all about! :wink:

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Re: księżycowy - Questions

Postby linguoboy » 2011-04-29, 4:17

księżycowy wrote:
linguoboy wrote:For that you need the copula, which merits its own chapter in most grammars of Irish. Have you started learning it yet?

Nope, but I'll keep my eyes out for it. The only verbs I really learned thus far it the present tense forms of /níl/bhfuil and one form of deir. (Basically only the first two real grammar lessons of LI)

Um, okay then. The copula is very different from the other verbs. (In fact, grammatically it doesn't make much sense to call it a "verb" at all.) It has no personal forms and can only be inflected for two tenses: Past-Conditional and Everything Else. (There were once forms for other tenses, such as the future, but they died out centuries ago.) It does have distinct dependent, negative, and interrogative forms and there's a fair bit of variation between the dialects. I find the Connemara forms in particular rather confusing, so you'll want to rely on Ó Siadhail for those.

Thanks for all that. I think it's starting to sink in what ann is all about! :wink:

Now wait until you get to its use as a personal form of the preposition i!
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Re: księżycowy - Questions

Postby księżycowy » 2011-04-29, 10:37

linguoboy wrote:The copula is very different from the other verbs. (In fact, grammatically it doesn't make much sense to call it a "verb" at all.) It has no personal forms and can only be inflected for two tenses: Past-Conditional and Everything Else. (There were once forms for other tenses, such as the future, but they died out centuries ago.) It does have distinct dependent, negative, and interrogative forms and there's a fair bit of variation between the dialects. I find the Connemara forms in particular rather confusing, so you'll want to rely on Ó Siadhail for those.

Now wait until you get to its use as a personal form of the preposition i!

Yay, I can't wait. :whistle:


Um, okay then.
Hey, I'm taking my time this time around. Though I probably could pick up the pace a bit.

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Re: księżycowy - Questions

Postby linguoboy » 2011-04-29, 14:21

księżycowy wrote:
Um, okay then.
Hey, I'm taking my time this time around. Though I probably could pick up the pace a bit.

No pressure, it's just that had I known, I would've avoided other conjugated forms in my examples. I wouldn't want to introduce too much too quickly.

But don't take too long; the copula is so important to Irish grammar (even more than it is in English) that it's never too soon to get started on learning it.
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Re: księżycowy - Questions

Postby księżycowy » 2011-04-29, 19:06

Well I seriously do want to pick up the pace a little. I'm a bit ashamed I'm only on lesson 3 after all this time . . . :oops: Not that there's any rush though.

And I probably will look up the copula. If memory serves me correctly if quite a few lessons into LI (like lesson 9 or 12 or somewhere around there). I'll probably look it up in Basic Irish.

And don't worry, I still understood (mostly) what you were saying in your examples. :wink:
And thanks for the concern too! :) Go raibh maith agat!

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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby księżycowy » 2011-11-27, 21:28

Well, this forum has been pretty dead lately. And I feel partly to blame, as I've been trying my hand at learning Irish. Of course my attempts have stalled quite a few times (due to various reasons), but I'm back into the flow of things, and figure I'll revive my thread here for practice and questions.

Anywho:
I'll start off by doing the exercises for lesson 2 of Learning Irish today, I'm feeling a lack creativity today. :whistle:
Feel free to correct me guys, as I wouldn't be surprised if I got some stuff wrong. :wink:

Lesson 2 Exercises:

1. Tá Máitín agus Bríd ansin.
2. Tá teach ansin.
3. An bhfuil boird agus rudaí eile?
4. Níl doirse ar bith anseo.
5. Níl fir ná gasúir ná anseo.
6. Nach bhfuil lampa ar bith?
7. Níl lampa ar bith.
8. Níl doras ná lampa ná anseo.
9. Tá mé sásta anois.
10. An bhfuil tu sásta?
11. Deir sé go bhfuil siad anseo freisin.
12. Tá muide sásta, ach an bhfuil tusa sásta?
13. Tá múinteoir agus daoine eile ann freisin.
14. Níl tusa sásta, ach mise sásta.
15. Táthar sásta ansin.

Notes:
-I wasn't sure about the word . There weren't any examples of it's usage in the lesson, but I'm guessing it's used in a negative sentence (níl, nach bhfuil, etc.)?
-I initially had eile before rudaí in sentence 4, but I corrected it. Noun modifiers go after the nouns in Irish, right?
-Do sentences like 7 need anything else? Like ann? Or is it acceptable the way it is?



[EDIT: Just editing some of my English grammar. :whistle: ]
Last edited by księżycowy on 2011-11-30, 21:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby DelBoy » 2011-11-28, 21:27

księżycowy wrote:Well, this forum has been pretty dead lately. And I feel partly to blame, as I've been trying my hand at learning Irish. Of course my attempts have stalled quite a few times (due to various reasons), but I'm back into the flow of things, and figure I'll revive my other thread here for practice and questions.


Woop! Welcome back - I've been pretty busy myself recently, so haven't been around here as often as I used to.

I've made a couple of corrections, but overall you've done well! (I assume this was a translation exercise?):

3. An bhfuil boird agus rudaí eile anseo/ansin/ann?

You're missing an adverb(?) (as in "here"/"there").
Even if it's not in the English sentence, it sounds wrong in Irish without it.

5. Níl fir ná gasúir anseo.
8. Níl doras ná lampa anseo.

-I wasn't sure about the word . There weren't any examples of it's usage in the lesson, but I'm guessing it's used in a negative sentence (níl, nach bhfuil, etc.)?

(in this sense) is the equivalent of the English nor

6. Nach bhfuil lampa ar bith ann?
7. Níl lampa ar bith ann.
-Do sentences like 7 need anything else? Like ann? Or is it acceptable the way it is?

These sentences are acceptable (in certain circumstances, such as a conversation like -"An bhfuil lampa ann?",- "Níl", -"Nach bhfuil lampa ar bith??"), but yes, they'd sound better with ann (or anseo/ansin).


12. Tá muidne sásta, ach an bhfuil tusa sásta?

14. Níl tusa sásta, ach mise sásta.




-I initially had eile before rudaí in sentence 3, but I corrected it. Noun modifiers go after the nouns in Irish, right?


Indeed and they do....mostly....

Maith thú a księży :mrgreen:
The British Isles are awesome - I know, I live there - but Ireland is not a part of them. K thnx bai!

Labharfainn níos mó faoi, dá dtuigfinn an bhrí...

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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby księżycowy » 2011-11-28, 22:31

Go raibh maith agat! :mrgreen:

I've been looking over the first few lessons for about 2 weeks, but never got around to doing the exercises yet, so I figured it was high time I did. :wink:

DelBoy wrote:Woop! Welcome back - I've been pretty busy myself recently, so haven't been around here as often as I used to.

As long as you're around enough to help me out! :P

I've made a couple of corrections, but overall you've done well! (I assume this was a translation exercise?):

Great, thanks! I've looked them over and I understand them (for the most part). And yes, they were English -> Irish translation exercises.

With you only need it once for it to mean "(neither) . . . nor?"

I seem to be missing that pesky ann quite a bit. Technically the English either didn't have "there" in the translation, or it didn't specify ansin. I do remember (now) that Irish does like those demonstrative pronouns a ton.

12. Tá muidne sásta, ach an bhfuil tusa sásta?

14. Níl tusa sásta, ach mise sásta.

Can't believe I forgot in sentence 14. :oops:
And Learning Irish has muide for emphatic "we."
Not sure if that's a dialectal thing (as the book teaches Connacht Irish).


Anyway, Go raibh maith agat! (again)
I'll post the next set of exercises in a day or two.

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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2011-11-28, 22:55

księżycowy wrote:With you only need it once for it to mean "(neither) . . . nor?"

The sentential negation eliminates the need to double up on .

księżycowy wrote:I seem to be missing that pesky ann quite a bit. Technically the English either didn't have "there" in the translation, or it didn't specify ansin. I do remember (now) that Irish does like those demonstrative pronouns a ton.

Just think of ann as corresponding to the "there" in "there is". You can't say *"Isn't any lamp" in English any more than you can say *"Níl lampa ar bith" in Irish.

księżycowy wrote:And Learning Irish has muide for emphatic "we."
Not sure if that's a dialectal thing (as the book teaches Connacht Irish).

Yeah, it's dialectal. Sinne is used in Munster and the older literary standard. Muid is actually the only example I know of a verbal inflection breaking off and getting a life of its own.
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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby księżycowy » 2011-11-28, 23:05

Thanks Linguoboy!

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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby księżycowy » 2011-11-30, 21:53

And now, as promised, the exercises for lesson 3:

1. Tá peictiúr agus páipéar agus leabhar agus boird anseo.
2.Tá bád Pháidín ansin agus tá mapa anseo.
3. Níl muintir Mheireacá ná muintir Shasana sásta anois.
4. Tá cailín Dhonncha agus fear Pheige ansúid.
5. Níl feilméaraí Chiarraí sásta agus níl feilméaraí Chonamara sásta ach a oiread.
6. Tá garraí Sheáinín ansin agus tá tarbh Sheáinín ansin freisin. Tá teach Dhiarmaid anseo.
7. Tá daoine Thomáisín sásta.
8. Tá seomraí go leor anseo. Tá seomra uncail Bhairbre anseo freisin.
9. Cá bhfuil bóthar Gaoth Sáile?
10. Níl páipéar ar bith anseo, ach tá leabhartha eile anseo.

Notes:
- For sentences like 1, do you have to write all the ands in there? Or could it also be: Tá peictiúr, páipéar, leabhar agus boird anseo.

- In sentences 2 or 5, do I need both or níl? I mean they're the same verbs and all. Something tells me I do, but I figured I'd ask anyway.

- In sentence 8 I was surprised to find that seomra comes before uncail Bhairbre. (So long as I did that right.)

- Could I also use ann for the second anseo in sentence 10?

Anyway, now I'm off to drill some vocabulary (as I had to look up a few words this time). I'll post the next set of exercises in a few days (maybe a week).

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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby DelBoy » 2011-12-01, 18:52

Dammit! I wrote a reply to you but before I posted it, Unilang logged me out and now it's gone....Oh well, here's a quick response again:

księżycowy wrote:And now, as promised, the exercises for lesson 3:

1. Tá peictiúr agus páipéar agus leabhar agus boird anseo.

spelling error (or dialectal variation?) - 'pictiúr'
(was the English sentence "There is a picture and paper and a book and tables here"?)

3. Níl muintir Mheireacá Mheiriceá ná muintir Shasana sásta anois.

Again, just a spelling error here.

4. Tá cailín Dhonncha agus fear Pheige ansúid.

I think you don't need to lenite names beginning with 'Do' (apparently because they were originally vocative forms :hmm: )

Notes:
- For sentences like 1, do you have to write all the ands in there? Or could it also be: Tá peictiúr, páipéar, leabhar agus boird anseo.

Yeah, it's fine without all those "agus"s

- In sentences 2 or 5, do I need both or níl? I mean they're the same verbs and all. Something tells me I do, but I figured I'd ask anyway.

Yes, you need both verbs.

- In sentence 8 I was surprised to find that seomra comes before uncail Bhairbre. (So long as I did that right.)

why so? It is, after all, the "room of the uncle of Bairbre".

- Could I also use ann for the second anseo in sentence 10?

I'm going to say 'no'... with ann at the end, the sentence sounds to me like:
"There is no paper here at all, but there exist other books (out there, somewhere)"
You can, however, do away with the second anseo:
Níl páipéar ar bith anseo, ach tá leabhartha eile.

Anyway, now I'm off to drill some vocabulary (as I had to look up a few words this time). I'll post the next set of exercises in a few days (maybe a week).

Go n-éirí leat!

(Sorry about the rushed tone - my original reply was less so, but I got impatient after it went missing...)
The British Isles are awesome - I know, I live there - but Ireland is not a part of them. K thnx bai!

Labharfainn níos mó faoi, dá dtuigfinn an bhrí...

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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2011-12-01, 19:12

DelBoy wrote:
1. Tá peictiúr agus páipéar agus leabhar agus boird anseo.

spelling error (or dialectal variation?) - 'pictiúr'

The latter.

I don't know if you're familiar with Learning Irish, but Ó Siadhail uses a lot of variant spellings in order to better reflect the pronunciation in Cois Fhairrge. A lot.

Case in point:
3. Níl muintir Mheireacá Mheiriceá ná muintir Shasana sásta anois.

Another Cois Fhairrge variant.

DelBoy wrote:
4. Tá cailín Dhonncha agus fear Pheige ansúid.

I think you don't need to lenite names beginning with 'Do' (apparently because they were originally vocative forms :hmm: )

Not familiar with that rule. What you have here is the "no lenition when dentals come together" rule. (Ní folair nó tá ainm níos mó coimre ann chun cur air sin.)

DelBoy wrote:
- In sentence 8 I was surprised to find that seomra comes before uncail Bhairbre. (So long as I did that right.)

why so? It is, after all, the "room of the uncle of Bairbre".

(I originally read that as "the room of Uncle Barbara" and was a bit confused!)
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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby księżycowy » 2011-12-01, 19:15

The English for sentence 1 was:
"There is a picture, a paper, a book, and tables here." So basically what you said.

DelBoy wrote:
4. Tá cailín Dhonncha agus fear Pheige ansúid.

I think you don't need to lenite names beginning with 'Do' (apparently because they were originally vocative forms :hmm: )

Interesting.

Yeah, it's fine without all those "agus"s

Thought so.

- In sentences 2 or 5, do I need both or níl? I mean they're the same verbs and all. Something tells me I do, but I figured I'd ask anyway.

Yes, you need both verbs.

Figured as much. Thanks for answering my stupid question none-the-less though!

- In sentence 8 I was surprised to find that seomra comes before uncail Bhairbre. (So long as I did that right.)

why so? It is, after all, the "room of the uncle of Bairbre".

I don't know, it just seemed odd, but I can't remember for the life of my why now. :P

I'm going to say 'no'... with ann at the end, the sentence sounds to me like:
"There is no paper here at all, but there exist other books (out there, somewhere)"
You can, however, do away with the second anseo:
Níl páipéar ar bith anseo, ach tá leabhartha eile.

Now that I think of it, that makes sense. Because the sentence was more like "There is no paper here at all, but there are other books (here)." I sometimes forget that ann is "there."
And it's good to note that I can skip the second anseo (which I imagine I could do with like sentences with anything like ansiúd, ansin, etc.)

Go n-éirí leat!

(Sorry about the rushed tone - my original reply was less so, but I got impatient after it went missing...)

Go raibh maith agat!

And don't worry, I didn't really pick up that much of a rushed tone, aside from when you pointed it out. :wink:
Last edited by księżycowy on 2011-12-01, 19:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby księżycowy » 2011-12-01, 19:20

linguoboy wrote:
DelBoy wrote:
4. Tá cailín Dhonncha agus fear Pheige ansúid.

I think you don't need to lenite names beginning with 'Do' (apparently because they were originally vocative forms :hmm: )

Not familiar with that rule. What you have here is the "no lenition when dentals come together" rule. (Ní folair nó tá ainm níos mó coimre ann chun cur air sin.)

Ok, now I'm a bit confused. All LI says in lesson 3 is that s is not lenited when it's before certain consonants.

Just when I though I got lenition down pat . . . .

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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby linguoboy » 2011-12-01, 19:42

księżycowy wrote:Ok, now I'm a bit confused. All LI says in lesson 3 is that s is not lenited when it's before certain consonants.

It's also not lenited after certain consonants, namely /s/, /t/, /d/, /l/, and /n/. And this applies to /d/ and /t/ as well. So sa(n) bhaile "at home", but sa(n) timpeall "around".

Ó Siadhail must explain this, but probably not until a later chapter.
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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby księżycowy » 2011-12-01, 19:56

Ah, I see. Go raith maith agat!

As I said before I'll be back in a few days (probably about a week) with more exercises.
Thanks for all your help so far guys!

I know there's an answer key at the back of LI, but the book can't answer questions or clear up confusion, hence me posting my answers here to begin with.

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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby DelBoy » 2011-12-02, 11:02

linguoboy wrote:
księżycowy wrote:Ok, now I'm a bit confused. All LI says in lesson 3 is that s is not lenited when it's before certain consonants.

It's also not lenited after certain consonants, namely /s/, /t/, /d/, /l/, and /n/. And this applies to /d/ and /t/ as well.


Or, to rearrange your examples Linguoboy - namely /d/, /n/, /t/, /l/ and /s/ - thus, the DeNTaLS rule (easier to remember that way, I find).
The British Isles are awesome - I know, I live there - but Ireland is not a part of them. K thnx bai!

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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby DelBoy » 2011-12-02, 11:04

księżycowy wrote:
DelBoy wrote:
4. Tá cailín Dhonncha agus fear Pheige ansúid.

I think you don't need to lenite names beginning with 'Do' (apparently because they were originally vocative forms :hmm: )

Interesting.



I read/heard that somewhere ages ago, but can't find anything about it now, so I may have made it up.... I'd stick with Linguoboy's DeNTaLS explanation!
The British Isles are awesome - I know, I live there - but Ireland is not a part of them. K thnx bai!

Labharfainn níos mó faoi, dá dtuigfinn an bhrí...

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Re: księży - Gaeilge

Postby księżycowy » 2011-12-02, 12:40

DelBoy wrote:I read/heard that somewhere ages ago, but can't find anything about it now, so I may have made it up.... I'd stick with Linguoboy's DeNTaLS explanation!

Ok, works for me.


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